Why not just walk away?

[Lynn]

Hi Guys

I now read through all the post and came to the conclusion: I made a damn good mess!!!

I spoke to hubby and we decided to do the right thing. So first thing tomorrow morning we

are getting all our things in order! This is going to be a big thing for us, but we are going

to stand strong. I now know that the things I have done in the past wasn't right, but it isn't

to late to do the right thing. So please, pray for us, it is going to be a steep and uphill road

for us, but we will get there!!

Hi Wannebee_Oz, changing course to do the right thing is brilliant, hard to do and takes strength and courage - well done. Let me know if you want assistance - send a personal info to me and I will give you ideas on how to fix the mess (if there is one). I find that often things appear a mess, but as soon as you break them down and begin working on them, they start to fix themselves and resolve themselves.

There are people that can help - so let me know.

K.rgds

Lynn

[FLockie]

Hi Snowi

Welcome to this informative forum.

Shadar Auditor is right. The world is an incredibly small place, thinking that unresolved debt and bad credit history, judgments and trouble with the Big brother SARS wont follow you to OZ is incorrect. Legally, morally ,ethically just not right. I suggest that you make plan and follow it diligently to settle debt every month, if it means doing without something so that the extra money can be paid into the accounts, then do it. I have started and it is an incredible feeling knowing that you owe less and less to banks, department stores every month. I would suggest you cancel all unnecessary payments that one involuntarily makes, eg: Edgars Club card- Magazine, Most big stores offer this. Total waste of money. There are many examples. Give your expenses a good look and start shaving off the frills, what you have left over can be used to settle your debt. Even if it means paying a few hundred rand extra into the bond would make a huge difference.

Just my 2c worth...

Good Luck !

[Duane W]

What a fine upstanding bunch you are.

I only had a small amount of debt left which I am paying. But let me tell you if I had debt like that and despite trying to do the right thing I was still lumbered with it when my departure date had arrived that I would do whatever I had to do in a heartbeat.

[JanCPT]

I would do whatever I had to do in a heartbeat.

I agree .... pay it off month by month from Aus

[colton]

It does catch up with you...you cannot walk away freely. We never had clothing acc's, credit cards etc so when we left we had no debt. I made sure everything, telephone, electricity etc was fully paid. We have been here nearly 2 years now and yesterday I got a letter via email from an attorney in RSA saying I owed on my TV licence. We sold our TV's in RSA and always paid yearly up front so I KNOW we owed nothing. Now to try and find proof, after 2 years to send to them!

My point is....I NEVER told them I was leaving the country. I never told them I was going to Australia. I never gave them my new email address. I left no evidence of having left there or that I am here, BUT THEY FOUND ME! Now, I don't have any outstanding debt (legally) that they are looking for so what makes you think that when you ACTUALLY owe them money they won't find you? Especially for large amounts of money, do you think they are going to just chalk it off as unclaimable? There are thousands leaving, how many have the same idea, there are fail safe methods put in place to prevent these things from happening.

The world has become very small and with so many people leaving for other countries do you not think that attorney's in RSA have counterparts in your new country? You will be found, you will be caught and you will pay!

As Lyn says "Do we want the same dishonest people coming to Australia as well". If we want to leave the corruption behind and start afresh that is what we have to do....start afresh by doing the right thing!

[JanCPT]

yesterday I got a letter via email from an attorney in RSA saying I owed on my TV licence.

They're actually quite cheeky in this regard

There is no need for you to prove that you DON'T owe them money .... THEY need to prove that that you DO owe the money

I am busy fighting with them about it as well

Cheers

Jan

[colton]

They're actually quite cheeky in this regard

There is no need for you to prove that you DON'T owe them money .... THEY need to prove that that you DO owe the money

I am busy fighting with them about it as well

Cheers

Jan

Hey excellent point Jan, I am going to suggest just that to them.

[Bob]

At the end of the day, there are always consequences that evolve from people's actions, whether they are "good' or "bad".

Banks in South Africa may possibly pass on their "bad debtors" credit rating to other banks that they have links with around the world, as a consequence, not allowing those skipping debt in S.A. to any credit in their new overseas location.

The South African gov't may require a "bank accredtation" before allowing South African citizens to leave the country in future. This "accreditation" may show one's personal financial situation.

There are a number of possible 'consequences" that can flow out of people arrueing debt and not paying it off.

Invariably it's those coming afterwards, who would be the ones who suffer all the inconvenience resulting from the activities of those who have gone beforehand.

[surfer]

At the end of the day, there are always consequences that evolve from people's actions, whether they are "good' or "bad".

Banks in South Africa may possibly pass on their "bad debtors" credit rating to other banks that they have links with around the world, as a consequence, not allowing those skipping debt in S.A. to any credit in their new overseas location.

The South African gov't may require a "bank accredtation" before allowing South African citizens to leave the country in future. This "accreditation" may show one's personal financial situation.

There are a number of possible 'consequences" that can flow out of people arrueing debt and not paying it off.

Invariably it's those coming afterwards, who would be the ones who suffer all the inconvenience resulting from the activities of those who have gone beforehand.

There are arrangements world wide between countries iro of what you are currently discussing. It is cross border insolvency. Should a creditor sequestrate a person in SA, that appointed trustee may decide to pursue your assetts in OZ.

Not nice thinking that you have started a new life and wake up one day having your assets attached in OZ for debts in SA.Rather discuss payment options with your creditors before leaving.

You will sleep much better not worrying about crime and your money beeing save in OZ.

Regards

Surfer

[natand]

In my opinioin the banks must share some responsibility so i wouldnt have that many sleepless nights about maximising my own advantage (after all they charge you to have the place valued so that they comfortable that the asset covers the bond they loan).

I do agree with most that i want to be responsible and leave with a clean slate BUT i am a first time buyer who purchased last year. I now cannot sell AT ALL due to market conditions. I estimate i would have to take a loss of at least 80k on the bond (excl the 50k i spent cash on the transfer, bond reg and legal fees) to even get bites (3 months on mkt, nobody even looked at the place in last 2 mnths).

I am not in a position to afford that loss so what do you do? Rent out for half the bond? How does one carry 5k per month when you trying to start in a new country? This isnt an option.

If anybody has more details on this VOLUNTARY repossession i woud love to hear it as it could mean i land with a lot more cash than i currently look set to achieve!

Failing this, once i am ready to leave and the house is still not sold you better believe i will send the keys in the post to the bank.

Natand

[Rissiepit]

If anybody has more details on this VOLUNTARY repossession

Be pro-active and speak to your bondholder and vehicle finance company. Explain your situation to them and be sure to ask about "debt counselling" and reaching an agreement with regard to paying shortfalls off in affordable monthly instalments, although I think debt counselling is more for people who are already unable to meet their monthly repayments. No harm in trying though.

Edited May 9, 2008 by Rissiepit

[Maloui]

Hi I am finding this topic quite interesting.

I agree that you should talk to you creditors, but have any of you tried to talk to the banks recently? WOW, must say, I have, and have been very dissapointed!

My view, they are not interested in helping you, they want more debt and want to attach all your valuables onto the debt, and if you don't have anymore, they can't help you get out of it. Then its debt counselling. This seems to be the buzz word when they are shifting responsibility to someone else.

If you don't have the cottage at the river which they can "sign up" it's a very hard road trying to talk. Maybe not all of us experience this, but this is true for me

Cheers!

[JanCPT]

In my opinioin the banks must share some responsibility

Hmmmm

When you bought last year, did you tell the bank that you were going to emmigrate?

Did you buy before or after the introduction of the Credit Act, cause then you would have had to provide proof of affordability to them.

Edited May 9, 2008 by JanCPT

[Rissiepit]

Unfortunately, when prime was around 10% everybody went "koe-koes" and maxed themselves out financially. Now, with the interest rate having gone bananas, prices soaring and the cost of living generally having increased dramatically, most people don't qualify for that same original amount of debt / credit any longer.

I remember the interest rate having gone up to more than 24% in 1998 - our PIP department had to employ a bunch of new people just to keep up with the work that came streaming in on a daily basis. So many people lost their houses back then. Imagine if that had to happen now ...

[Shadar Auditor]

If you are seriously struggling to sell the house, I would suggest speaking to the bank...and quickly.

Seems that the interest rates are set for another major hike. 1.5% in fact over the next 2 quarters.

I just tried to buy a new car...mainly due to the fact that my wife's car is giving us hassles. Thank all that I hold dear that I didn't sign the Prime + 0.75 offer from my financial institution of choice.

Anyway, seems that there are three unavoidables in this world. People that will track you down better than InterPoll.

SARS is one. Never mess with SARS. Ever.

TV licences. I have never seen anyone so dedicted to getting paid for what is basically a useless service. I don't think any of the SABC's are even tuned on my TV.

The SA Blood Bank. Once you donate, you are never ever free again. I lost my cellphone in a mugging (armed of course) and true as Bob three weeks later the Bloodbank was phoning me again - on my new number.

Want to find Osama? Have him donate blood once.

There are many debt managing agencies. Some of them are even free (I think) and they would be your best bet if you are serious about getting rid of your debt.

Mine is my wife (an almost-CA) and she is anihilating our debt at an incredible pace.

Somewhere out there someone will help you. All you have to do is ask.

[JDJoburg]

Snowi, I'm a financial & legal adviser, and since you asked the "experts" for an opinion, I thought I'd give you some free advice.

I believe that this forum is aimed at helping each other out with emigration issues. If you are in serious debt, you should not be looking into emigration, you should be looking into solving your financial problems, and this is not the forum for that.

If you think, hypothetically, that leaving your unpaid debts behind and "starting over" somewhere else is OK, then you are, regrettably, an idiot. Hypothetically of course.

I hope you find the true source of your troubles.

(Jeesh, I'm in a great mood this morning.)

[Andrea]

Anyway, seems that there are three unavoidables in this world. People that will track you down better than InterPoll.

SARS is one. Never mess with SARS. Ever.

Yep, its true - they do find you. We had a letter from SARS about 2 years ago (4 years after we left RSA !!!!!! ), requesting proof of payment of some or other tax, accompanied by a threatening letter about along the lines of 'if you haven't paid, then pay, or we will hunt you down!!

[Leigh MC]

The SA Blood Bank. Once you donate, you are never ever free again. I lost my cellphone in a mugging (armed of course) and true as Bob three weeks later the Bloodbank was phoning me again - on my new number.

Want to find Osama? Have him donate blood once.

That is bloody funny! Good thing they don't want my blood (I'm too anaemic)...

Can I just ask about the house/bank thing? If you're struggling to sell, do you mean the bank would buy it from you? What if an estate agent has a mandate on it, can you still speak to the bank?

Thanks,

Leigh

[LeonieT]

Hi All,

I was contemplating whether I should post this, but in the end I feel explaining our situation that someone could maybe give us some advice.

My partner and I had a business together but due to our circumstances he had to get another job to support us.

I am currently in debt counselling and its a nightmare. I applied last year in June and nothing is finalized as yet. They have a month to contact all my creditors and notify them of my situation. They did not do it in time and some of the creditors withdrew from the debt counselling. They have worked out a payment plan for me but how do you pay it back when your income fluctuates every month. One of the banks withdrew from the debt counselling yesterday because I could make the full payment for the last couple of months. I did pay them half but that makes no difference to them. What should I do now? I was hoping to keep the arrangement and pay it from Australia. The bank will now come after me and I don't have the money to pay them everything. I don't want to declare myself bankrupt but they will not negotiate. I don't have any assets to sell to pay them. I was trying to do the honest thing but I feel totally lost..

Let me just give a bit of background info to explain.

When we started out our business we rented jewellery tools from one of our main clients. She later decided to move away and took everything, giving us a few months to get our own tools together. She was our biggest client who provided most of our income. We then borrowed money to fund the tools and start a new range. In the beginning we sold our jewellery wholesale to companies but they always wanted a better price. We refused to pay our people less and bring down the quality of our product to keep prices down. We could not compete with imported products and decided to sell our range directly to the public. We found a few shops that would sell our jewellery on consignment. For a while our lives were normal.

Last year everything seemed to fall apart. There was a robbery in one of the shops and they took all our stock (40 rings). The shop did not have insurance. Then two of the shops we had our jewellery in went bankrupt. They owed us allot of money. We then decided to go to festivals to sell our jewellery.

In previous years these festivals we very profitable, but with the crime and interest rates going up people just didn't have money to spend on luxury items. We had to spend a lot of money to get there and pay for the stall, accommodation etc. We didn't do to badly but then my car broke down on the way back. Probably because we were pulling a trailer bigger than the car itself. We fixed the car but had to sell it. The mechanic said there was no way the car would make it back pulling that trailer. We had to buy another car strong enough to pull the trailer. During this time we could not work and our staff stayed at home. Accommodation and the daily trailer rental, food expenses etc ate away at our profit from the festival. We work from home and thought we would be back within a week to start manufacturing again. We were stuck there for almost two months.

With all the financial problems and expenses we fell behind on payments on everything. Winter was coming up and it is the worst time for jewellers. Nobody buys jewellery in the winter. Luckily the company my partner is currently working for in South Africa approached him out of the blue and offered him a job. At least something was going right. The problem is if you don't earn an income for about 3 months you never catch up again.

The South Africa we knew was changing for the worst. With all the interest rate raises, gold price sky rocketing, it was becoming impossible to pay everything. People we know had to move back to their parents, because they could not afford their house anymore. The first thing people save on are luxury items, food and housing is your most important expense.

As for the business the government wants us to give half of it away to someone that was previously disadvantaged. The problem is we are currently the disadvantaged and can't afford to share our income. If we don't do it we can't get a gold licence, thereby having to close down the business. There are allot of jewellers that work alone form home and just generates enough income for themselves. They are being affected by this the most. They can barely survive but must now give away half of their business to a complete stranger.

This is where we decided to make the move to Australia. I looked for work for him and a company is willing to sponsor him.

Every month our income from the business is becoming less and less. We don't have money to make new stock to send to the stores we have our jewellery in.

We have to try and save money to get my partner there, pay for all the visa requirements and for him to survive until he gets his first salary. If we can get him there, he can start saving money to get me there. We have to sell the house but as you all know the market is not doing well at the moment.

We will have to put most of our things and jewellery equipment in storage here until we can save up to get them over as well. I will have to try and sell all our remaining stock at a wholesale price before I come. The import duties on jewellery are a bit expensive for us at the moment. We will build up stock again at a later stage when we are settled .

We have worked ourselves up from nothing before and can do it again. We just need to get there and start working on our new future. Our income is not enough for us to survive on anymore.

What is the best thing to do now?

I want to go to Australia and pay back everything but now I do not know what will happen to me and if I can go.

[The 3 R's]

Hi Guys

I now read through all the post and came to the conclusion: I made a damn good mess!!!

I spoke to hubby and we decided to do the right thing. So first thing tomorrow morning we

are getting all our things in order! This is going to be a big thing for us, but we are going

to stand strong. I now know that the things I have done in the past wasn't right, but it isn't

to late to do the right thing. So please, pray for us, it is going to be a steep and uphill road

for us, but we will get there!!

Wannebee_Oz

Good on you, you have taken the first step !!! May you be blessed

[Lynn]

Hi All,

I was contemplating whether I should post this, but in the end I feel explaining our situation that someone could maybe give us some advice.

Hi LeonieT, you have certainly beared your soul here. I have been doing financial management, counselling and planning since 1995 and I can honestly tell you that there is always something that can be done. Please believe me when I say this.

Please send a personal message to me so that I can give you my e-mail address so that you can send me certain statements, etc so that I can give you some ideas of how to get out of this appearing mess. I say appearing, as in most cases, it is just the enormity of the whole thing where you cannot see the wood for the trees. Each person's circumstances are different and that is why I do not want to give you ideas on this forum - as people that should not take the advice will mostly likely take it.

So, I will try to help you - at no cost - just let me have your details and I will e-mail you.

K.rgds

Lynn

[Lynn]

Hi I am finding this topic quite interesting.

I agree that you should talk to you creditors, but have any of you tried to talk to the banks recently? WOW, must say, I have, and have been very dissapointed!

My view, they are not interested in helping you, they want more debt and want to attach all your valuables onto the debt, and if you don't have anymore, they can't help you get out of it. Then its debt counselling. This seems to be the buzz word when they are shifting responsibility to someone else.

If you don't have the cottage at the river which they can "sign up" it's a very hard road trying to talk. Maybe not all of us experience this, but this is true for me

Cheers!

Hi Maloui

This is not true. If you have not defaulted on your mortgage debt and have been a good client in the past, but are going through problems, whether they are the interest rate rising beyond your means, or circumstances going haywire, then if you approach them (not the clerk that sits at the counter, call centre or enquiries desk) you will find that they will give you up to 6 months leeway on your repayments or they will arrange that you pay interest only, or capitalise the interest or full payments onto the capital, or something else.

Again I say, there is always a plan to be made.

K.rgds

Lynn

[Lynn]

They're actually quite cheeky in this regard

There is no need for you to prove that you DON'T owe them money .... THEY need to prove that that you DO owe the money

I am busy fighting with them about it as well

Cheers

Jan

In SA we have a system that says that you are innocent until proven guilty - except in respect of rape and there is another one, just cannot remember off the top of my head. Therefore, if someone is claiming money through an attorney to you, it is the attorney's job to substantiate the claim (firstly), if a claim is made and it is legitimate, it is his job to claim the funds.

Where they cannot substantiate the claim, well, tough tacky. They have to before you are liable.

K.rgds

Lynn

[Lynn]

At the end of the day, there are always consequences that evolve from people's actions, whether they are "good' or "bad".

Banks in South Africa may possibly pass on their "bad debtors" credit rating to other banks that they have links with around the world, as a consequence, not allowing those skipping debt in S.A. to any credit in their new overseas location.

The South African gov't may require a "bank accredtation" before allowing South African citizens to leave the country in future. This "accreditation" may show one's personal financial situation.

There are a number of possible 'consequences" that can flow out of people arrueing debt and not paying it off.

Invariably it's those coming afterwards, who would be the ones who suffer all the inconvenience resulting from the activities of those who have gone beforehand.

Too true Bob.

K.rgds

Lynn

[Dugong]

This is a joke right?

After all the good advice in previous posts on this thread, there is no polite way to answer this...

In my opinioin the banks must share some responsibility so i wouldnt have that many sleepless nights about maximising my own advantage (after all they charge you to have the place valued so that they comfortable that the asset covers the bond they loan).

I do agree with most that i want to be responsible and leave with a clean slate BUT i am a first time buyer who purchased last year. I now cannot sell AT ALL due to market conditions. I estimate i would have to take a loss of at least 80k on the bond (excl the 50k i spent cash on the transfer, bond reg and legal fees) to even get bites (3 months on mkt, nobody even looked at the place in last 2 mnths).

I am not in a position to afford that loss so what do you do? Rent out for half the bond? How does one carry 5k per month when you trying to start in a new country? This isnt an option.

If anybody has more details on this VOLUNTARY repossession i woud love to hear it as it could mean i land with a lot more cash than i currently look set to achieve!

Failing this, once i am ready to leave and the house is still not sold you better believe i will send the keys in the post to the bank.

Natand