Australia VS Canada

[Caroline]

Soooo ...... hubby and I have this conversation last night and it goes something like: ..... if things don't work out with Oz or there are major complications with visa etc... where in the world would we go to? This is just the kind of 'hypothecial debates' that we have sometimes.

UK ... hubby suggests boldly (I stare at him forgetting to chew my food for a few seconds). Norway he suggests just as boldly (I jump up to fetch the salt). Canada? he goes on (I have visions of 'fjords' so I relax a little). So we enter into a debate of 'why not ...'.

Well, my arguments were all based on my previous experiences in life of which are all personal and subjective. there's nothing wrong with the UK, my parents used to live in Bath and I would visit them regularly. But there was always this feeling of relief when I stepped on the plane back to Norway. That 'feeling' when I saw the west coast mountains and the cold fresh air when we stepped out the airport. (I know I know... I don't like the cold ). But moving to Norway would mean a 'language' barrier for the children and although I believe that the two youngest ones would be fine-I am not too sure about my step son. I feel that it would be too much for him. Besides Norway hardly has any South Africans and I like South Africans!

Now hubby points out to me that I once said that if Norway was 'english speaking' I would go back straight away because I could survive the weather as the 'only challenge'-which when you are used to it is not really a challenge

"Canada-english speaking Norway" hubby sais with a huge grin on his face. Australia seems to be looking better by the second I think to myself

No offence-just a 'weather thing' people. But just in case you are wondering.... yes, I will be 'checking' out the SACanada site again. Just in case....... always good to be prepared.

[Guest Seoul Sister]

Mmmmmm. CANADA.

You could do a lot worse than Canada. Very few flies on that place. Loads of space, loads of immigrants, safe, clean, very high standard of living, good schools, stylish ppl, stable economy. If you go dig on the internet a bit you will find quite a few South African settlements in Canada and everybody seems to be very happy there. So, if you don't mind a bit of snow and cold, and you are looking for an immigrant friendly country with reasonable immigration laws, Canada is probably one of your best bets !!

These are of course just my views on it. The ppl in Toronto and Vancouver all seem to be having happy lives !

Gotta go, catcha later

SS

[Caroline]

Well, if the Ozzies don't want us we just might head toward 'colder climates'. I am a little worried you know with Peter being diabetic and over 45 (I am having a serious moment here-it doesn't happen often so bare with me). But I think that it will be OK, but I like to have 'plans' ready (ABCDEF....) You know with kids and work there's always so much going on and just in case some things don't go the way that we anticipated... well, then it's good to have a plan B ready.

Anyway, we'll see how it goes.

[Ajay]

How about NZ if you don't make it to Oz - I think the points system is slightly less onerous across the water? We'd considered that, or maybe the UK (both from there as well originally) but just the thought of the greyness and rain put us both off. Luckily, I got a job offer and got a sponsor to come to Sydney, so we didn't have to look at any other options. We arrived here in November and have settled down nicely. Good luck with the decision

[Caroline]

Thanks Ajay

That's a good idea I really do hope that we make it into Oz though, I REALLY liked Queensland

But NZ sounds good as well. Also got beautiful mountains and 'fjords' with english speaking people.. can't go wrong

Hubby just wants good access/ technology i.e. ISP's etc. Well, lets see how it goes, time goes soooo fast.

[Guest Seoul Sister]

Hey girls,

Good thinking !

I like that idea as well. New Zealand. Oh wow, I have never been there, but from what I have seen on the tellie and books, it looks SPECTACULAR. If it had enough IT consultancy opportunities for us, it would have rated higher than Australia, but Oz had better opportunities for us. My dad has SO many friends who live there and they are all just so happy and settled in. One of them flies from there to Hong Kong every second month for a few weeks for business, but he doesn't care, he has never even considered moving closer to his work...

OK, maatjie, so it seems you are set with plans B and C ?

Love from here

SS

[Bob]

An awful lot of South Africans seem to put plan B into operation on not acheiving plan A (getting into Australia)

Plan B is New Zealand

New Zealand is not unlike Australia and Canada . . . English speaking, stable gov't and economy, Westminster system of gov't and British legal system, etc., etc. They drive on the left as in Britain, Australia and South Africa / Zimbabwe.

Down the bottom of the South Island there are beautiful deep fiords carved out in the Ice Age, much like Norway's with the Southern Alps forming the backbone of the Island, so skiing and hiking are very popular . . . and cheap compared to Australia's ski fields.

If you've seen "Lord of the Rings" then you've seen New Zealand countryside . . . . fantastic.

The North Is. is where 3/4 of the country's population hang out and Auckland has loads of Saffies from what I hear. The North Shore of Auckland has just about one in three South Africans in some areas!

Since the America's Cup was held there about 15 years ago, the skyline of Auckland the the rebuilding of down-town has transformed the city.

North of Auckland is the Bay of Islands, a warm, sub-tropical style of holiday islands for water skiiing, swimming, snorkelling, surfing, etc.

Australia is just a three hour flight away for a real tropical holiday on the coral reefs there.

Many migrants used NZ to get into Australia via the back door. They'd do two years residency to gain NZ citizenship which entitled them to work and live without restriction in Australia. The NZ gov't was getting tired of losing its migrants all the time after two years, so last year they bumped the residency needed to FIVE years to qualify for citizenship.

You can't work in Australia without NZ citizenship . . . . a work permit is only good for New Zealand. It doesn't cover Australia. Only the Australian gov't can grant you PR and a work permit, although NZ citizens get it automatically as they always have done.

Personally, I wouldn't knock back the idea of migrating to New Zealand. The economy is going beserk with NO unemployment there . . . . anyone can get a job of sorts there . . . so some areas may be easier to apply for and the age limit is extended for many trades to NZ.

[Caroline]

Thanks Bob-especially for taking the time to write the details about NZ-appreciate that

NZ does sound lovely, worth a look anyway. So that's sorted then:

Plan A: Australia

Plan B:NZ

Plan C:Canada

Plan D:Norway

Plan E:UK

I feel 'on top' of things again

I know that we will get into Oz for a 2-3 year study permit but it is the PR I am a little worried about. Although we will not be job seekers and hubby is preparing to apply for a 'state sponsorship'/business investment visa. It's just that the stakes change every year.

We thought that we had things 'aced' with the study visa.... i.e. the study rule where 2 years full time study in Oz puts you on same point/level as 457 application. Well, apparently that will be changing to 3 years full time study from June 2006 . Not a train smash - just have to keep informed and be ready for change.

I like being 'organized' though so that's probably why I get thrown of course so much every time there's a change.

Thanks a lot

[Bob]

Never having had to apply for a visa for Australia or New Zealand, I'm unsure on the whole process, but from what I gather online, skilled migrants need to be under 45.

A year or two ago, in another forum, an Irish nurse wrote to warn people of leaving it past their 45th birthday.

She applied a couple of months before her birthday through a migration agent to the Australian dep't of Immigration, Multi-cultural & indigenous Affairs (DIMIA) to come as a skilled migrant. Nurses are in short supply here, so she would have been snapped up ordinarily.

The application sat on the migration agent's desk for six weeks, only to be lodged a week AFTER her 45th birthday!

DIMIA wrote back very shortly afterwards stating that as they had received her application and she was a 45 yr old, she was considered too old for skilled migration.

She lost out on coming into Australia!

Business visas are much the same, EXCEPT a State / Territory nominated business visa which they will consider you up to 55 years of age.

It's been around for about twenty years now that students studying in an Australian university will get easier PR for Australia on gaining their Uni degree in a degree which the Australian economy is in need of.

You may need to check on the time taken for a degree and which degree gives you the better advantage of applying for PR afterwards.

I can't help thinking how much all this is going to cost, because you can only work 20 hours a week as an overseas student and that won't keep a family of five. On top of that, you have to study full-time, or you fail and negate the whole purpose of it all.

There have to be better ways of getting out of South Africa than that!

[Caroline]

Bob

I think that you are so right about the 'under 45 rule', lots of peple have told us how strict that is. But that's OK because hubby doesn't need to go in on a skilled migrant visa. For us it is between me on study option or hubby on business option.

Initially we were going to go the business application 'route' and the study visa was plan B (yeah yeah I know, me and my plans ) but then it turned out after speaking to a couple of people that applying for the student visa would be so much 'faster' and less hassle. Initially it was 2 year full time required but from June 2006 it will be 3 years full time study required but that's OK. I'm happy to study but it has to be what I want to study and what is relevant to my work. I know the situation is a little 'unusual' but we will probably never apply for a 'skilled mig visa'. I would like to have the security of knowing that I can apply for one and stand on my own two feet if something ever does happen to my husband. It's just one of those concern's a mother of 3 has when hubby is diabetic.

We were considering applying for 'business visa' (state/terr. nominated)after the study visa because hubby will continue his business and will need to employ people anyway so I am sure that we can 'change' visa application whilst we are there or when the study visa expires. These are details that I of course have to look into asap as 'I think' is not going to do much for us. . unfortunately I think that we started our process a little late and now the pressure is on. Hubby is concerned that a state spons business visa will not be approved in time for January 2007. With the student option we don't need to worry about this.

Hubby just told me to ask a question.

-Going with the 'wife on study option', can he continue 'working'/running his own company from Australia?

-If he wants to employ somebody (an Australian), will it cause complications because his company is not Australian?

Phew, that was a mouthfull... I be off now to search google for more information

Chat later

[Ray51]

Actually , Canada would be my very 1st choice !

How come ?

- Toronto is a nice , well-functioning place , cosmopolitan , multi-ethnic , safe and not as far from the rest of the world as are Oz/NZ ;

- big additional bonus : once resident of Canada , U.S. is wide open , too ( correct me , if I'm wrong ? );

- Quebec is fabulous ;

- many winter-days feature bright sunshine , which makes the cold less hard to bear ;

- the 4 seasons provide excellent dressing opportunities !

- very low inflation , affordable housing...

- braaing is thoroughly acceptable !

A few negatives :

- need to shovel snow from driveway , for a few months ;

- healthcare system getting worse now ;

- v.v. expensive prices for wines ( and spirits ) ;

- fairly hopeless TV ...

[Guest Seoul Sister]

Hey Ray,

"the 4 seasons provide excellent dressing opportunities !"

And this is why I just have to love you, you are speaking my kinda language !!

I can eliminate one of your cons for you, since there are companies who do the snow shoveling of your driveway/sidewalk for you, for a small fee and depending on where you live. So snow could be a plus, if you don't have to do the work, but get to enjoy the beauty of it.

Will mail you in a little while.

Love from here

SS

Edited February 16, 2006 by Seoul Sister

[Caroline]

Now you guys are really confusing me .. should option B be NZ or Canada ... what to do what to do....

Well, Ray, hubby agrees with you. I had no idea how fond he was of Canada, he has apparently been there 4 times (Vancouver is his favourite spot). I did point out to him that the wine would be more expensive but for once it did not seem to faze him in the least! Very unusual......

And as for shovelling the snow.. well we allready have 3 'snow shovellers' in our house, they just don't know it yet

[Ray51]

Believe you me : have I met MANY happy sethEffrikenz in T'to and Ontario!!!

It's a dynamic place , I find the architecture agreeable even ;

then there's the lake ( and the winds , therefrom !)

Luckily , the beers don't worry me , as there's a silly Gov't-controlled system there , akin to some Skandie-plekkies ...

Good fashion on Queen St. ; excellent cinema from all continents , Yorkville and elsewhere

SouthAfricans used to congregate around Bayst mall ( affectionately a.k.a. BayViewFontein ! ) and used to mostly reside in Willowdale and further North , York Town , but now there's many in Beaches , too !

Some O.K. cars are real dirt-cheap there , as is petrol ;

the Greek , Italian , Asian , other ethnic : quarters = are real great Fun!

and for every little Canadian cent U spend on yr Visa/MasterCharge , there's AirMiles !

(So , you too can kill off the darkness of February , for next-to-nuffink , by a 10-days in Florida or Carribean!)

There's usually real value for yr money there ( i.e. : except when you go into a liquor store ) ;

hope this helps!?

[Guest Seoul Sister]

Hey,

"wine would be more expensive but for once it did not seem to faze him in the least!" He must really love the place !!!! Hehehehehehehe.

Well, luckily they are very different ! Hehehehe, but then again, Canada is to the US what New Zealand is to Australia. I am just gonna say that the Chanooks are often seen as Americans with volume control and style and leave it there... Before I get klapped on the head !!

*another fantastically useful word from the army*

I'm gonna keep quiet, since I'm just making things worse. Either way you probably can't go wrong !

Love from here

SS

[Caroline]

hehehe OK.. you two really made me laugh now . But I was not joking about the man loving his wine! When I first met him it was the 'norm' for him to finish 1-2 bottles of wine by himself in an evening . One night we were on the phone chatting (we used to chat for hours) and he was in mid sentence when all of a sudden it just went quiet . So I called his name several times but no response but I could hear the sound of the fan in the kitchen on his side so I knew that I hadn't been cut off. Then I heard the snoring and I realised that he was sleeping-cut a long story short- he fell asleep on the kitchen floor with a glass of wine in his hand whilst in mid sentence

A story that I remind him of every time he drinks more than 3 glasses of wine

[NZHigh]

There would be many advantages and disadvantages to moving to either New Zealand, Australia or Canada, BUT....

New Zealand has no snakes

[Guest Seoul Sister]

Very good point NZHigh !

Indeed something to consider.

I have heard that housing in NZ is just ridiculous (expensive). Can you pls share your thoughts on it...Small, expensive, big, luxurious, old, new, etc.

Love

SS

[Pippa]

Hi Caroline,

We've been in the same situation before... We couldn't make up our minds between Canada and Oz. We've had an opportunity of visiting Canada in 2004/2005. Absolutely gorgeous!!! The people were extremely friendly and we had a wonderful time there.

Maybe you should read at some of the posts below to get more information. (Hendie, please forgive me for posting the below links, but it is imperative for Caroline to read some of the comments and concerns about Canada.)

http://www.sacanada.org/index.php?showtopic=8050

http://www.sacanada.org/index.php?showtopic=7671

I've posted the last post, as I was really concerned about all the red tape in Canada. But please bear in mind that these are only opions of individuals and if your attitude is right, you will be able to make it anywhere.

After careful consideration, we've decided on Oz. My husband is a 29 year old lawyer and would need to complete 3 subjects and 2 pratical legal training courses before he can get admitted as an attorney in Oz. We will only be able to apply for PR (skilled migration) once he is admitted as an attorney in Oz. Hectic ... - a long and costly exercise, but it is definitely worth it.

Should we've decided on Canada, my husband would have had (exuse my wonderful english) to complete 12 subjects and complete articles before being admitted as an attorney!!! And then you have a thing called

"Canadian Experience" which is the major drawback I believe!!!

It is a huge decision and I suggest you do a lot of research before deciding on plan B/C!

Should you consider Canada, I suggest you apply for PR ASAP! It takes approx 24 months for it to be processed and approved so get going if you want to go that route.

Please note that you are in my thoughts and prayers and I do hope that you first choice becomes a reality to you and your family!

I wish you the best of luck!!!

Have a great weekend!

Pippa!

[Caroline]

Hi Pippa

Thank you so much for your post. I had read the (one) thread that you posted before with great interest.

But the other was also interesting...I have seen some of Marius's posts but not this particular thread. I actually had a few things that I would have liked to share with him but I thought it best to leave that particular thread alone.

I am not completely undecided about Canada VS Australia-I think that I would prefer Oz (maybe because I have not been to Vancouver yet ) but I believe that it would be an easier move for the kids especially my step son. Also... I have already recieved my 2 year student visa offer so that part is over. Personally I prefer the outdoor life that follows with living in Oz but I do have an umbrella so Vancouver wouldn't be to bad

Hubby is convinced that I will 'feel at home' in vancouver and change my mind

The 'red tape' is something that we are looking at very closely. Unfortunately Oz is not that keen on over 45's so our situation is completely different. We will be talking to somebody but if it turns out that there is 'less' red tape for Vancouver then we will go in that direction. We are quite fortunate in that we can be quite flexible.

We are considering sending in an application for Canada even if we go to Oz because we don't know if we will be accepted for PR in Oz. At least then we would have had ample time to prepare for Vancouver.....

Thanks again

Chat later

Caroline

[Mara]

Caroline, as far as I know the age for NZ is 53 or 55, so that should not be a problem for you! We lived there for 3,5 years and loved it. My husband was transferred to Melbourne and that is why we are here. My eldest son still lives in NZ and says nothing would make him move.

[Pippa]

Hi Caroline,

Only a pleasure. Good luck with your plans and hoping that you make the right decision!

Please keep us up to date with regards to your plans!

Ciao, Pippa!

[Caroline]

Hi Mara-long time no 'see'

well, that's plan C-it was plan B until Peter said 'rather Canada than NZ'. So if Oz doesn't want us and Canada doesn't want us we move on to plan C =New Zealand

This could get confusing Did I mention that Norway is plan D and UK plan E?

Pippa- will do. Peter will be home in a few hours so then I'll get all the news from him as well. So excited... who knows maybe it will be off to Oz we go and happy ending (PR)

[NZHigh]

Did I mention that Norway is plan D and UK plan E?

Well I always reasoned that it was all about options. We were very fortunate in that we qualified to migrate to various countries at the time.

Our plan A was New Zealand

Plan B Aus

Plan C Canada

Plan D UK

Plan E Dubai (obviously not permanently)

Plan F Cape Town (from Pretoria)

[Caroline]

Hehehe Glad to see that I'm not the only one who 'plans ahead'