Darwinism

[Coyote Ugly]

Went to preveiw for this movie

be on the look out to see it in your area

Raises questions

http://www.expelledthemovie.com/video.php

[Mr Van]

And then for balance (well, truth, but lets leave that argument out of this forum), go see http://www.expelledexposed.com/

[Guest Chris Rimmer]

Went to preveiw for this movie

be on the look out to see it in your area

Raises questions

http://www.expelledthemovie.com/video.php

This fillum certainly raises a question about the sanity of people that think it (the fillum) raises questions.

[Guest Aussiegirl]

Sorry don't mean to be dumb but I don't get it??

PS hello Chirs!!

Edited April 18, 2008 by Aussiegirl

[Dugong]

The Bible says that the earth was created... end of story. I do not believe in big-bang or evolution in any shape or form. Nor do I subscribe to any of the Da Vinci code rubbish doing the rounds.

If you are interested, here are a christian group of Scientists, physicists etc that believe in the word of God and have set out to understand science with the Bible as the start, not mans theory. They have already proved that the bible is right on many things - not that any of us need proof!!! and will explain why the big-bang and evolution are impossible. They will also talk to you about carbon dating and the fallacy that the earth is millions of years old.

Do they have all the answers? No, but at least they start with the truth " In the beginning..." and work from there. Their theories must agree with all scripture pertaining to the theory, and be scientifically sound, or it gets through out - Bible first, science second.

http://www.creationism.org/

[Mr Van]

Creationism tries to bend and shape science to fit the bible. These 'scientists' do not get to a conclusion from experimentation, but try to fit the experimentation to the conclusion. The wrong way around.

Its strange to me that people will discard most modern science when it comes to the creation, but accepts it when it comes to other things…

See http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-meritt.html

Edited April 18, 2008 by Mr Van

[MichaelG]

Good timing with this.. Cambridge University has just released the Complete works of Charles Darwin on the Internet:

http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/04...ins-papers.html

..

And more on topic with the thread. No matter what your belief is. Creation or Darwinsm - preventing people from expressing that belief is a problem.

That is whereI believe the greater problem lies.

Governments must not make these decisions for schools. let people make up their own minds based on information (from both sides)

[Mr Van]

I am of the opinion that if you want to teach creationism in schools, you have to teach evolution in Sunday schools.

Creationism is to science what evolution is to Christianity...

I also do not think creationism is an 'alternative theory' or a science as it is not based on scientific methods, but on a very old book written by people who thought the earth was flat and the sun rotated around the earth... (not intending to belittle the religion, just pointing out the vast difference in knowledge between today's average Joe and those days' people - so don't jump on me please )

But, in the context of religion, no problem. There are people that believe we are souls from aliens, or that in the year 2012 whjen some calender expires the world will change as we know it, or that gay men are doomed but gay women are ok as they so not sodmise each other, .… the list goes on. Doesn't matter to me.

What matters is that we should not discard science (or the advancement thereof) simply to protect someones interpretation a very old book (well, set of books) as that imposes a religion on people. Like the pope saying that excessive wealth is a sin (forgetting the riches of the Vatican of course) should not change financial markets... Catholics can believe what they want, but should not impose limits (or alternative theories) of business subjects in schools...

[Dugong]

Creationism tries to bend and shape science to fit the bible. These 'scientists' do not get to a conclusion from experimentation, but try to fit the experimentation to the conclusion. The wrong way around.

Its strange to me that people will discard most modern science when it comes to the creation, but accepts it when it comes to other things…

Mr Van, I don't agree with your statement. These are not a bunch of crack pots proposing theories. Most of these people are recongised scientist and are published experts in their fields - or were until they said " The bible is the source of truth". If they had said some bit of earth rock found 300trillion years ago was the source of the truth, every scientist on earth would que up for a shot of insanity. Or that aliens landed on earth and grew us in test tubes, everyone thinks this is scientific enough for exploration. Or Darwin who based his theory on a pig bone and without any proof whatsoever, anywhere still today, decided that everything evolved from some microbe in the sea - wow!!!

It seems to me that the underlying issue with all these discussions is - what lense are you going to put in front of you theory to ensure you are on the right track? There are those of us that believe in God and a planned creation and our foundation of Truth is his word , and there are those that are hell bent on proving that there is no God and that the universe happened by accident and created something bigger than itself by chaos theory and random luck. So for them, a salamnader that crawled out of the sea 300bil years ago and became a man is all the science they need. And the proof? One theory is the proof of the next and so on, and so on until you have an elaborate web of philiosophy - it just proves that man is good at story telling. Oh, and the creation of a branch of mathematics to hold it all together - sounds impressive, but as I studied maths and any actury or programmer on the site will know, you just need a few constants to create a mathematical model.

So, I guess it comes down to what you believe. I believe in those old books, that Jesus Christ is the son of God, that he died on the cross for me and that through the shedding of his blood I have been saved. So, if the bible says man was created, I don't care what any theorist states, for me the truth is that "man was created". I believe in heaven and hell and that each of us has a choice to make. Ignoring the choice doesn't remove it.

Just to note, I am not catholic and actualy, which group you belong to is not relevent. Its what you believe that is. Using someone elses short comings as a reason for none comital will not wash water. One day each of us will stand on his/her own and account for our lives, words, deeds etc

Edited April 18, 2008 by Lion King

[Coyote Ugly]

Hi All

Thanks for the input

I am with you Lion King

I cannot beleive in a big bang or chaos evolution there are so many unexplained factors in this theory

I went to a couple of lectures here in the States hosted by Ken Ham (ex Australian living in the US)

I found the presentations so well presented that you can only admire God's handy work

If one just looks at the complexity of the human body it could not ever have just evolved (the eye, the ear, amazing)

And then the animals how they work -- the Girafe with its valves in the blood circulation system awesome

more and more amazing facts

nice debate thanks

http://www.creationevidence.org/

Edited April 19, 2008 by Coyote Ugly

[Guest Chris Rimmer]

Sorry don't mean to be dumb but I don't get it??

PS hello Chirs!!

I'm just pulling your leg. The last thing we need on this forum is a free for all on 'intellegent' design vs natural selection.

[Guest Chris Rimmer]

The Bible says that the earth was created... end of story. I do not believe in big-bang or evolution in any shape or form. Nor do I subscribe to any of the Da Vinci code rubbish doing the rounds.

If you are interested, here are a christian group of Scientists, physicists etc that believe in the word of God and have set out to understand science with the Bible as the start, not mans theory. They have already proved that the bible is right on many things - not that any of us need proof!!! and will explain why the big-bang and evolution are impossible. They will also talk to you about carbon dating and the fallacy that the earth is millions of years old.

Do they have all the answers? No, but at least they start with the truth " In the beginning..." and work from there. Their theories must agree with all scripture pertaining to the theory, and be scientifically sound, or it gets through out - Bible first, science second.

http://www.creationism.org/

Who told you it was the truth? Do you speak to God often? If so can you ask him to send my dad back?

[Guest Chris Rimmer]

Good timing with this.. Cambridge University has just released the Complete works of Charles Darwin on the Internet:

http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/04...ins-papers.html

..

And more on topic with the thread. No matter what your belief is. Creation or Darwinsm - preventing people from expressing that belief is a problem.

That is whereI believe the greater problem lies.

Governments must not make these decisions for schools. let people make up their own minds based on information (from both sides)

The fact that Dawinism is a 'belief' comes as news to me.

[Mr Van]

I do agree that with a certain lens over your eyes you will only see one side. However, I've seen creationism's side first and then wanted to know more and ended up discarding it for 'darwinism' the moment I realized that one is science and the other simply poses as science.

I employ you to remove the lens and get yourself to see both sides and then make an informed decision.

It's easy to disprove evolution. Just get a very old bone that does not fit that era's animals. So far evolution is just being proved over and over again with each find.

Also, there are a few steps to the evolution to the eye and ours is definitely the best out there. Design flaw?

I'm not going to post the links to the websites where you'll find evolution being defended by the recent creationism onslaught, because I'm pretty sure that once you uphold the bible as the ultimate source of truth, you will not bother with any other info.

Also, I'll stop the debate here as this is probably not the right place for this kind of debate and will probably not lead to any good for the forum.

[Dugong]

I'm not going to post the links to the websites where you'll find evolution being defended by the recent creationism onslaught, because I'm pretty sure that once you uphold the bible as the ultimate source of truth, you will not bother with any other info.

Also, I'll stop the debate here as this is probably not the right place for this kind of debate and will probably not lead to any good for the forum.

Mr Van, you are absolutely correct.

I don't think either creationists or evolutionists will convince each other to change views, and I agree with you, this isn't the forum to have this debate.

The reason, is that creationism or evolution is the effect/extension of the cause/absolute. So if you believe in God, by extention you belive in Creation, if you don't by extention you believe in something else, probably evolution. Arguing/debating the effect, does not change the absolute. And this certainly is not the forum for that type of discussion.

Edited April 19, 2008 by Lion King

[Mr Van]

Ok, we agree to disagree..

Now lets hope the Stormers win today!

[alanb]

They have already proved that the bible is right on many things - not that any of us need proof!!!

Lion King, just so that you know, there are many of us that not only need proof, but want it as well.

The difference between a real scientist and the theologians you describe as being scientists is that theological "scientists" are willing to base their entire position on their faith that a book which was written by primitive man thousands of years ago is absolute and true, whereas real scientists reflect upon currently known or unknown theories and hypothesis and use them as a basis for further investigation. Thus we have faith vs the open mind. I honestly believe that an open mind produces less biased results. Faith to me means that someone has gotten to a point where they believe there is nothing more to explore on the point and so have shut their minds to any further ideas on that topic.

Richard Dawkins has an excellent book called the God Delusion which will well and truly change your perspective and give you a reason to really think about it.

[Gizmo]

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0411...1/fulltext.html

[Dax]

Here's a link to another thread on which we debated a similar topic

http://www.saaustralia.org/index.php?showtopic=2327&st=0

alanb,

I tend to side with you, while my faith is nestled in the Judaeo-Christian tradition, i also firmly believe in the creation-evolution approach. (I'm also a Stephen Hawking diciple)

In my view the Universe as we know it, was formerly a singularity, then there was a inflative event (big bang) and from that evolved the universe as we know and observe it.

But, i believe that it did NOT happen by itself, it was ordained, and the only one who could ordain the inflative event (Big bang), was God.

I don't know how and why He did it, but I believe that HE did it.

I am aware that the Bible descibe events to the effect that everything was created about 4 000 years ago, and i concede that it presents a dillema, however, i also believe that the Bible should not be treated like a text book. I often find "anomalies" (e.g. was the whole world innundated during the flood in Genesis, or was Mesopotamia only involved?) in the Bible, but it does not distract from my faith.

Dax

Edited April 20, 2008 by Dax

[Alida]

Lion King, just so that you know, there are many of us that not only need proof, but want it as well.

The difference between a real scientist and the theologians you describe as being scientists is that theological "scientists" are willing to base their entire position on their faith that a book which was written by primitive man thousands of years ago is absolute and true, whereas real scientists reflect upon currently known or unknown theories and hypothesis and use them as a basis for further investigation. Thus we have faith vs the open mind. I honestly believe that an open mind produces less biased results. Faith to me means that someone has gotten to a point where they believe there is nothing more to explore on the point and so have shut their minds to any further ideas on that topic.

Richard Dawkins has an excellent book called the God Delusion which will well and truly change your perspective and give you a reason to really think about it.

Take care not to belittle God or His Word He gave to mankind by inspiring normal men to write it down for us. You might be due for an unpleasant surprise, the Almighty God will not let His Name be ridiculed. After all, as Creator of everything He is also the Author of science.

[Eveline]

Is anyone familiar with the work of Dr Hugh Ross and his colleagues?

Check out Reasons to believe's website.

Very interesting.

[Joey_Muchacho]

Debating creationists on the topic of evolution is rather like trying to play chess with a pigeon - it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flies back to its flock to claim victory.

[TertiusVanZyl]

Debating creationists on the topic of evolution is rather like trying to play chess with a pigeon - it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flies back to its flock to claim victory.

I like!

Being part of many forums on the net, the topic of Christians vs Darwinism vs Evolution vs Big Bang vs Creationism vs etc etc

And as everybody has got their own opinion, not one of us actually got the full evidence to out smart, out play and out last the others. For one thing, I never trust what 'they' say. the "Hulle komitee" is what we always called the 'they'. I must say, I'm a tad jealous of how the "They Comity" just knows everything about everything to be able to explain everything and come to a trust worthy conclusion. I'm religious and got my own opinion on religion vs evoluti, but not to be aired here. Because I'm a computer wiz, not some one trained in all religions.