Negative experience in the workplace

[Dedré]

Giegle-Giegle ha-ha! Sorry! Typo! DARN! I can only smile!

The word was "COMMEND"... I'm an Arikaans laaitie! Sorry man!

So, Marius, the sentence should read: "Marius, I COMMEND you for being so nice to the guy... darn good answer to anyone doubting to move."

But I'm sure Marius understood anyway...

Ps. Koen... I'm not going to feed the troll in you either... Take what I said as good advice, or turn away like a gentlemen and decide it's not for you... Like I said: "a decent positive caring attitude in life, will get you far." even in Oz. In Oz an insulting manner in addressing colleagues won't get you far... what I would love to say as well is this:

...Should you decide to vaugly insult people in an indirect manner, they will pic it up, and you will have trouble at work, and you would want to come back. I truly mean that nicely. You strike me as very young and I understand that it is something still to learn. But learn it quick, as you should rather not go to Oz with an mannerism that will send you right back. To fear is OK, to doubt is OK, to be human is OK... but to learn from ones mistakes, is one of the best life lessons learnt...

...But I am afraid to say that to you, as it seems you might find good advice amusing and cocky... and that would be sad.

Edited April 14, 2007 by Dedré

[Koen]

Dedre I think you should take a tiny bit of your own adivce.

"I "commend" you for being so nice to the guy......"

And why shouldn't marius be nice to the "guy"?

PS: My name is Koen, and you seem to wake up each morning with atitude.

Thanks to the others for your heartfelt input, catch up later,

KOEN

[Marius]

Dedrei,

No worries, ek het gesien dit 'n Boere typo ek weet wat jy bedoel het.

Koen, komaan ou maat, los nou die foxterrier houding, hier is mense wat eerlik wil help, dit is die doel van die forum. As jy advies of ander perspektief wil he vra dit dan. Jy vroeere posts was baie naby aan troll gedrag en nie baie weldeurdag nie. As jy nie die advies en raad wil he nie haal ek 'n ou digger ( ou Aussie oorlog veteraan ) nou die ander aand op TV vir jou aan:

"This is Ausralia mate, this is our way of life, it makes us the envy of many other countries,if you dont like it or our way of life - NICK OFF ! and dont come here". Luister na die oom.

So, wees baie welkom om konstruktiewe vrae te vra of advies te kry, maar los die stront van jou vrooere en laaste post of NICK OFF. EK sien uit na jou posts om te hoor hoe jou besluit toe verloop het, laast ons gerus weet.

[Guest Sunshine Sister]

Hi Koen,

Welcome to the forum.

Oh wow ! I am amazed at some of the defensive and emotional outbursts your post has evoked. This is a phenomenon that I have experienced a number of times, both on forums and here in Australia and it still strikes me every time. I recall my own frustration before our move, at trying to find any information on negative aspects of life Down Under – especially when asking Saffers. I have a number of theories on why Saffers react like this – but will spare you the (boring) details.

From the responses I have seen, there have been a number of assumptions, many of which I don’t agree with. You are assumed to be a troll, young, inexperienced, stirrer-of-trouble, etc. You are also assumed to be joining us from South Africa and to have had South Africa as sole frame of reference. I for one, wouldn’t be surprised at all if you are in fact writing from elsewhere on the globe and therefore have the luxury of weighing up office conditions and finer details before taking the plunge Down Under. I agree completely with your thoughts on generalization and how it helps us to succeed when foreign to a country – I agree it would have made a difference to your friend’s unfortunate situation. Another skill which she would have no doubt benefited from, is being more assertive. (not aggressive). A skill probably not ranked very high with parents embarking on a prim and proper Afrikaans upbringing for a girl, but one that would have served her well IMHO. It is sad that things turned out the way they did for her here in Australia. Her inability to deal with the situation she was presented with doesn’t have to mean that she is judgmental, it can simply be that the industrial culture shock experienced was too big for her and she didn’t have the skills, options or support to overcome it.

You pose an interesting question. One that I decided to put to the test today on a number of friends at a BBQ-party. These friends are from a variety of different professional backgrounds, some foreigners (no Saffers) and some Aussies, women and men. Yes indeed, much of what you described has been seen by a number of ppl at some of their companies / clients. Lots of swearing, lots of drinking and yes, in some cases by women. More interesting to me tho’ was the fact that some of the foreign men ascribed this phenomenon to the fact that women aren’t equal to men and (exactly as you suggested) women possibly doing this in an attempt to be one of the guys…. (Yes, before I get jumped now - it is obviously a generalization of a number of companies, in a number of different industries, most of them in Sydney). Neither Aussie men, nor the Aussie women (excepting one who has worked in New York) in the group agreed with the statement that Aussie men are somewhat chauvinist in the workplace. All of the foreigners, British, Canadian and European were in agreement that there was definitely inequality of some sort /degree in the work place. My hubs has often said the same – he has experienced things at work here that would have probably been taken to the Union in Holland / Belgium / Sweden.

* I hope this is not too far off topic, I just found it a really interesting result/twist to your question*

I am sure most Saffers when asked about this issue, will agree with our Aussie friends in that there isn’t any chauvinism (or very little) to speak of in Aus. This obviously comes down to frame of reference (doesn't have to be right or wrong) and what is seen as acceptable in society. Much the same as the drinking and swearing. I know from my own experience with my kids that I have been surprised at some of the things tolerated at school here (language, aggression, vandalism), while unacceptable in their previous (American) school, while the Saffer parents find it all jis great - Ray-style. If your frame of reference is not solely based on South African experiences, you may want to direct your question more specifically at ppl on the forum who share a similar frame of reference to yours, thereby ensuring that you benefit more from the responses you get.

Good luck with your decisions.

Love

SS

Edited April 15, 2007 by Sunshine Sister

[Gavin]

Hi,

Australia, is a great country(with little water). The fact is I believe the person has just landed a job with the incorrect company that does not fit her value system.

The difference is people here say it as it is and do not sit in the front row of Church on a Sunday only to get drunk, fight and commit adultery for seven days thereafter. South Africans are the first ones to throw stones in glass houses. It is a bad habit that must stop - adapt or die.

Remember this - Australia - number 1 cricket team, number 3 in Rugby, brilliant in swimming and soccer, unemployment at 4.5%, interest rates at 7%, dole, not one tin shack, can buy a new car for $16000, HECS.

If this is what disorganisation and profanity gets you, it makes apparent organisation look worse off.

Living in Aus, you have the best of three worlds - SA, AUS and even NZ. Life is great.

Gavin

[Marius]

Indeed Gavin, well said

[Koen]

Just when I was about to throw in the towel with this lot, along comes a very well considered unbiased poster that actually read my posts and never leapt to all sorts of strange and wonderful assumptions. Thank-you Sunshine you have no idea what a relief your post has been, I was beginning to doubt if I would ever even be able to settle in amongst my fellow South Africans never mind the Australians.

You make some extremely valid points, and the short answer is "SPOT ON", your arguments sound highly plausible to me. The only small adage to your stream of thought I would think, is that although my frame of reference (and this could apply to any number of people out there) is not European or even American, though we/I have travelled extensively to various happenings and conferences, plus my family being all over the place, my frame of reference is most definitely something I picked up simply because of tertiary education, right here in South Africa.

Without being judgmental here, the point you make about how people see the world through their own cultures backgrounds and even education is very well taken, and can bias a response/understanding at grass-roots level of what an issue like "male chauvinism" for example even means.

I think you should start a little cross-cultural training company, you have the correct attitude and spirit to make a decent go of it, I am sure.

For myself I have decided to let this one go. The politics in the company just sound too messy at this point. They haven't completely resolved themselves, and no where near as satisfactorily in my mind at least (and this is where it counts) to be conductive to a good secure working environment. Something else will come along no doubt.

It would seem and here I am sure Australians are not unique, but that they just love their politics in the work place there. There hasn't been a single person so far that I have dealt with that hasn't been just too eager to spill the beans on their fellow colleagues as far as who is in with who and whose agenda I should be swinging with. Believe it or not this is a drugs publishing company!!!!!

On second thoughts it sounds like it might have been a lot of fun, ah well next time, as long as the issues involved are work related and not things like racism, I will be more than happy to let the games begin.

Thank-you for your excellent and very well considered reply.

Koen

[Marius]

Koen,

I see you normally post around 3 am SA time......are you on graveyard shift or can you not sleep ? Or are you somewhere else currently ?

[Dax]

Koen,

I see you normally post around 3 am SA time......are you on graveyard shift or can you not sleep ? Or are you somewhere else currently ?

Ditto

Dax

[Erica]

Hi Guys

I know i am butting in a bit on this one , watching it for the last few days and yes i have to smile POT CALLING THE KETTLE BLACK

I AM A SOUTH AFRICAN WOMEN WHO WORKS IN THE I.T INDUSTRY AND THE LANGUAGE THAT EXISTS IN THIS INDUSTRY IS ALARMING ON DAYS - the stress levels are high and tempers flare due to constant critical situations - being in the industry for 14 years and worked for 3 different companies and hello same applies to each one ! the industry is know for foul language . I dont use foul language at home and very seldom at work I switch off to it and strangely enough you stop noticing it after a while - some people pick it up some dont -

We have Muslim people working with us it is against their religion but they dont judge or comment -

Does it really matter does it make somebody a bad person does it make it a bad place well that is a personal thing - but at the end of the day life is what you make it no matter where you are - look for the positive as opposed to the negative and wow you are okay

Yes I have been told by many people ( who have only ever be to Australia on holiday ) how vulgar the women are - well look around in good old sunny SA we aint picture perfect

The other day I was told how dirty australian are (people are amazing meet one dirty person lets label the whole country )

And my son god father turned around to us the other day and said WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU GUYS DOING Australia has a huge drug problem have you seen all the needles on the beaches !

this one made me laugh - never been there read some article never bothered to research it but made a comment like that !

I am still coming over for our little LSD and then hello Aus come January 2008 - language can be ignored, dirty people can be bathed - needles can be cleaned up

BUT LIFE CAN NOT BE GIVEN BACK

so for anyone who is worry about little things that dont make or break you - you can walk away from them but you cant bring back someone you loose

We are so looking forward to coming over to Aus with its bad and good - at this point anything beats the fear that 99 % of educated SA have - a new life a new world and lots of new friends sounds like and awesome opportunity to me

PS SORRY IF SOUND A LITTLE DRAMATIC NOT INTENDED

Edited April 18, 2007 by Erica

[Koen]

I see you normally post around 3 am SA time......are you on graveyard shift or can you not sleep ? Or are you somewhere else currently ?

That Marius is none of your business mate. Next you will be asking for a full account of my movements. Sorry no can do. I wear lacy-black underwear (courtesy of my better half) and eat peanut butter straight from the jar with my finger! Help any with your input?

Don't feed the monkeys is sound advice. Who ever said it, I tend to agree.

Edited April 20, 2007 by Koen

[Ajay]

Koen, now I don't see anything wrong with Marius' question - and it certainly does not warrant your response. You're a bit edgy my friend - maybe he struck a nerve. Why don't we just all cool down the tempers and get down to what this forum is really about: emigration

Ajay

[Mandz]

I Agree with Ajay 100%!!!!!

Koen, you need to "chill out" mate!

[Jaen]

Koen,

I think you are childish and should think before you reply. There was no problem with the question, because you make a lot of statements and are not prepared to look at both sides, let alone answer anything.

jaen

[Marius]

I have to agree, this type of thing belongs on RBN, not here where the objective is to help people with immigration issues. Even people posting from oohhh lets say the USA, maybe Chicago or anywhere else in the world for that matter will be assisted if they have ligitimate questions....

[JohanK]

Koen is just a D k guys let him be as feeding him is what D S want!

Here kitty kitty

Edited April 21, 2007 by JohanK

[Hendie]

Johan, I am getting fed-up with the name calling that is happening here on the forum. I suggest you retract what you said, this is NOT the kind of conversation that we want around here! If you disagree with someone, please do so on a civilized level.

[JohanK]

Hendie, you are more then welcome to retract it as I will not, I am sure you will. If YOU want to rather protect people like Koen go for it!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited April 21, 2007 by JohanK

[Dax]

I wonder if this thread shouldn'd die a natural death?

Thing are going beyond debate and spirited discussion now, and no purposes are served.

dax

[MannyT]

That Marius is none of your business mate. Next you will be asking for a full account of my movements. Sorry no can do. I wear lacy-black underwear (courtesy of my better half) and eat peanut butter straight from the jar with my finger! Help any with your input?

Don't feed the monkeys is sound advice. Who ever said it, I tend to agree.

Hi Koen!

I have read all your your "posts" with some interest and I would advise that you stay in South Africa.I can assure you that Australia can and will survive without you.

I have been in Australia for just over five years and love it here and I know many other ex Saffers who are also very happy here.

Ps.I note that you appear to have an number of female friends with personal problems that you have chosen to "champion" on this rather public forum