Negative experience in the workplace

[Guest Bronwyn]

Wow - I didn't expect my little thread to start all this trouble! I must say I have read through everything and it seems obvious that some of us are misinterpreting each other's posts.

We have a lot of different personalities here, all at different stages of our emmigration process.

Some are quick to criticise, some make sweeping statements, some defend their friends. I think that's normal, but let's not let it get to us. These are stressfull times.

I think Koen's friend truly could not stand her situation any more, it offended her too much. So we all have different tolerance levels, and she made a decision to leave. It's a pity she felt unable to function in that environment. Maybe it was unusually bad at that company.

I have never heard any swearing at my workplace. On the contrary, I find most people quite respectfull and even formal. I did, however go for drinks last Thursday with a few colleagues, and it was great to get away, sip a glass of wine and chat.

Let's remember we are all on the same side here!

By the way, I really don't mind my thread being hijacked, I think I've done it a few times myself, and anyway, this one's much more interesting.

PPS. Thank you again for all the kind comments and support.

[Dreamcatcher]

*gaap*

Tienduisend kilometer weg en ons kan nog steeds nie een party vorm nie.

Hoor hoor!

[Barnone]

Some advice Koen

If you insist on defending ridiculous generalizations on the Australian work ethic here - don't expect support on this forum

I would like to add that if Koen(or anyone else) makes ridiculous generalizations then they should expect to to offend people on this forum.

Something tells me Koen knows this already though

Somewhere, someone wise, once said "don't feed the troll"

[matman]

Somewhere, someone wise, once said "don't feed the troll"

Sorry Barnone - I have to ask where that saying came from as I had not heard it before, but had a great chuckle reading it - "don't feed the troll" Thats good.

rgds

matman

[Koen]

Ha ha ha Bronwyn you have made my day, listen what are you dong Saturday night??? Maybe we can hijack a nice little wine bar there near the sea, and nibble on a pot of steaming mussels, or is that muscles and enjoy some cultural difference?

I have no intention of getting embroiled with the strong arm bullies that patrol on the peripheries of this site. I keep a Boerboel for that. But I will try just once at least to educate, as far as this is possible, and in my own limited capacity for this sort of thing. Stereotyping and generalisations are not the bad guys, in fact they are vital to success in a new land, its what you do with the information that counts.

Understanding why we "think the way we think" and "do the things we do" enables us to consider differences without judgement and to understand our reactions to differences as an extension of our own values, beliefs and preferences. Once we identify and understand our reactions to differences and how they impact our daily interactions, we can identify and manage our reactions to these differences in a way that ensures positive results. So you see though we all know the Ozzies are fond of the old booze and the less than discreet use of the English language, it is normal within their society, and thats why we or she reacted like she did, because she was insecure of her own reactions, not fully understanding, and taking it all very personaly.

So had my colleague been better at stereotyping and generalisation she would have been able to recognise these differences for what they were, she would have seen that this was normal behaviour in her new country, and maybe just maybe she would not have reacted so badly and rather stuck to a very promising career down under and made more friends along the way?

[Dreamcatcher]

Huh???

[Enrica]

Koen

As far as I can recall drink and swearing is certainly not exclusively an Australian pass time. But it appears that being judgemental of other cultures/religions and countries is not.

[Koen]

Huh?? I am not being judgmental here? But OK here is a letter published in the Times, a British news-paper.

Being called a pom may seem harmless from the safety of London, or if you’re on a three-week holiday following the Ashes. But if you live in Australia for any length of time you eventually get sick to the back teeth of it. You can’t open your mouth in public without someone sneering at you, or whinging about something British. After a couple of years, it doesn’t sound like banter any more, it sounds like hate. Im glad I left.

Seems like the whole world is full of it, am I glad I am not a pom then?

Edited April 12, 2007 by Koen

[Enrica]

Firstly, I was not implying that YOU are judgemental but your friend/aquantaince. Your article out of the British press is no different to the Saffers having Auzzie Bashing Parties in SA when they play against Australia!!!

This thread is now becoming a slinging match.

You will find certain people in every country from all nationalities whom will have something to whinge about.

When in Rome , do as the Romans do as they say. If you dont like it it is your perogative to leave.

Edited April 12, 2007 by enrica

[G72]

To the rest of this forum

It is irrelevant what "Koen" is posting here - he is clearly just trying to get a reaction out of us - so lets stop wasting our time

[Cindylou]

*yawn* I refer you back to Barnone's post: please don't feed the trolls.

[Marius]

I have to agree, Koens comments are now getting somewhat destructive in nature and also offensive.

Koen, you have it all wrong mate. Your knowledge of Australia and the culture here is very limited and clearly based on less than perfect ( honest ? ) distorted, unrepresentative rumours and typical "braaivleis vuur praatjies" from people either not able to get in here or that could not make it here now wanting to trash this lovely country we now call HOME. We are all for constructive critique or people wanting more info or clarity, but you seem to steam ahead with your very ill informed sweeping statements despite several LOCAL people taking the time to explain the opposite.That is troll behaviour and I for one and I am sure all the rest will now stop feeding it.

You will get little support here this way, go to RBN for that type of thing. Feel free to ask constructive questions.

[Ray51]

I like this thread !

- had a colleague in Joey'z , by the name of Johnnie Koen , he was an estate agent in Linmeyer/Oakdene/Bassonia areas : good looking short-ish bloke , sharp dresser , soccer afficionado and ladies' man - would anyone know ( of ) him / his whereabouts ?

[Survival]

In my case I resigned in a good job in SA (working for global company - matrixs organization) for job in Aus at managed on structured org based, THIS WAS SO FRUSTRATING, PLUS I'M DOING NOW WHAT I'VE BEEN DOING ABOUT 4-5 YRS AGO!!! Remember that the objective of my move to Aus was not Career Movement but Survival for my family.

Anyway after my 1month here I received 2 other job offers more to where I'm supposed to be on my grading level and work environment.

Comparing Aus and exSA it is clear that SA more hard working, more open minded and easily moving into senior positions. Aus don't think out of the box, having more balance lifestyle with work only a small % of it and strategic they good but can't implement.

[Koen]

Worried but just hanging in there, man oh man. Life is not easy too many choices and not enough information?

I just want to say to the decent and intelligent dialogue satiated, like Cindylou, with their easy and rather too convenient troll escape route, that I am no stranger to discrimination and jibes, do you think with a name like Koen it was an easy ride growing up in South Africa at an English boarding school as the only Afrikaans boy. So call me what ever you wish. I have been called worse by red-necks here in my very own country.

As far as my colleague goes no "Marius" I do not consider her opinion as "distorted unrepresentative rumour" I in fact rather respect her educated and professional opinion.

Can people not discuss the pitfalls and concerns about moving and working in Australia without plummeting into the depths of nationalism? I cannot see how that is helping anyone plan ahead.

Is there a general anti-Afrikaans feeling here or even South African? I think this is counter productive myself as we are all meant to be South African here, or are we not?

"Survival", this is my understanding too, and I respect your honest opinion. How do you manage to get a team working under these circumstances, does it just take that much longer or is implementation generally left to us South Africans with a different work ethic?

Look here it gets interesting, because right now at this moment a job vacancy has come up in Melbourne, and I am tempted, but worried. I am worried because of a few things. Firstly my predecessor would be, if I took the job, just have been fired for making racist remarks to his Indian colleague, both are Australian but only one of Indian decent of course. This has not been kept a secrete from me and I am feeling pleasantly surprised that this kind of thing is in fact weeded out in companies in Australia.

But, and this the big but, how will I be perceived by my Australian Indian colleagues as an ex South African??? Does our reputation precede us or are we seen as just another foreigner? OK this is probably already more questions than can be answered for the next while so I will ask more later. I understand a bit more of the work ethic thing, but as I will have quite lot of independence, if I considered the position, it might not be a problem. I feel too that although I deeply respect my present colleagues feelings and cultural background (we come from the same "pot nat" after all) that I maybe as a man will find things just a bit easier in the beginning. Who knows?

[Ajay]

Hi Koen,

But, and this the big but, how will I be perceived by my Australian Indian colleagues as an ex South African??? Does our reputation precede us or are we seen as just another foreigner?

Well, as someone who deeply respects colleagues feelings and cultural backgrounds, you may want to reconsider some of your previous statements..I can't imagine why we have a reputation of being a bunch of arrogant, non-tolerant narrow minded bigots...

What struck me as being pretty bad and not just your basic homesick and slightly disorientated newbie, was that she found it basically impossible to deal with her bosses (also women) profanities. The F word was used like you or I might say cool! Even on greeting it was F'ing nice day and F'ing this and F'ing that.

Is this quite common down under? I am a totally well socialised male and usually politically correct but this would drive me to get fired I am sure?

Hmmm, OK, maybe not so tolerant. Or maybe swearing is just a bridge too far?

I wonder if the actual work practises in the office that she found so irritating have not got something to do with the heavy unionisation of the work force in Australia? People only doing so much and no more, as described in their job descriptions, so you get an office full of people doing their thing but not stepping outside their box (mind set) to co-ordinate and maintain a free flow of constructive idea, and in a nut shell get the actual job done.

OK, OK, maybe making a sweeping decision about the mindset of a workforce based on heavy unionisation is a really tolerant attitude....but maybe not?

My colleague is in the pharmaceutical industry doing medical editing for drug companies, not exactly the kind of workplace where you would expect to find this sort of behaviour.

Wholeheartedly agree! Surely everyone knows that people that work in drug companies are above having a drink on Friday nights, but those damn trucking company employees....who can trust 'em!

I mean just consider the IT person arriving to work and saying what a F'ing bunch of SH' traffic there is this morning??? I cannot believe anyone of you would be sitting there with the same sactimonious smile on your face in that situation. I truly cannot.

Actually, my sanctimonius grin is just spreading wider and wider. Must be my tolerant attitude

But when it becomes something of a national trait one is pretty much helpless. I personally would try not to let it worry me, but then I am not a practising Christian and I enjoy a dop after work anytime. But for some people it is a truly horrific assault on their personal space and well being, and I sympathise with that, and I respect it above all, I truly do.

Maybe there is a point in that it could be more prevalent in lets say Sydney for example than elsewhere. Most of her colleagues are young like herself and tend to be upwardly mobile, but that doesn't make it acceptable.

Just like the fact that you haven't lived in Australia but consider yourself knowledgeable enough to know drinking and swearing is a national trait that the government are helpless against isn't acceptable....

I do believe very sincerely that Afrikaans people generally have a much higher level of respect for their hosts and colleagues than most other people perhaps, maybe its upbringing and a deep Christian responsibility, I don't know, but they make a huge effort to treat people with a lot of respect and kindness thats for sure.

Yes, and your high level of respect and kindness precludes you from ever, ever being condescending towards those pesky drunken foul mouthed Australians and the "red necks" from your own country, right I'm not evengoing to touch the deep Christian responsibility point...

I'm sorry fellow forumites - I know I should let this go, but I just couldn't resist pointing out all the delicious ironies raised here. I'll stop now

Koen - I really don't believe that you are a troll - not in the true sense, but I do think that you are making mischief here. If you genuinely have an interest in moving to Melbourne, or anywhere else in Australia, I can personally highly recommend it, but you will need to understand, as you say, that this is not just South Africa without the problems. It is its own country, with its own culture, and just as you didn't like the "red necks" telling you why everything back home was better and judging the locals to be slightly less than intelligent, the Australians are prone to being offended by those that come in here and see it as their right to judge them.

AJay

[Koen]

Ajay, no,doubt no-one has ever accused you of being a time waster? You turned most of my valid and interesting questions into statements, and then proceeded to pass judgement yourself. Not very bright mate.

However your last few sentences made sense only in that they were not complete non sequiturs.

It seems in fact that only a few people here actually bother reading peoples posts properly, why are people so quick to leap in head first? Is it too much to ask that some of you read before you think and think before you write? It saves a lot of brain dead argument, and slack jawed labelling. If you cant contribute or feel out of your depth, just don't respond? It couldn't be easier.

These are serious issues and shouldn't be brushed aside so eagerly. Some of us actually have to base real life decisions on other peoples experiences, both the positives and quite critically also the negatives, there is unfortunately no better way.

[Ajay]

You're right. No one has ever accused me of being a time-waster. As you'll see from my activity on the forum, I prefer to try and offer advice, information, guidance and support to those genuinely seeking it, and I'm sure that you'll find that many members have benefitted from this.

How many can say the same about you?

I stooped below my usual level this morning and for that I apologise - this is not my usual style, but you have to be prepared to back up your claims to being highly respectful of others with actions and posts that show this. Your posts thusfar have not indicated that to be true at all. I am deeply offended by your red ncek remark, for example, as I hail from the UK originally and spent years being called names by those lucky enough to have been born in SA and having to listen to taunts about going back to where I came from. Using phraseology like that and saying you respect people from all cultures is akin to using the "k" word and claiming not to be a racist.

Again, apologies for the previous, childish post.

Ajay

[Koen]

Apologies accepted.

Just to clarify it seems you may have read my posts too fast after all. BUT ONCE AND FOR ALL, I never claimed to be a paragon of respect and tolerance, heaven alive none of us is perfect, it is my Afrikaans colleagues sensitivities that I have been defending, to the death it seems. In plain English. I have never worked in Australia I have no idea how I will respond to any of this, better I hope, but that remains to be seen. One thing is for sure, the more I know the better it will be!

There you have managed to get a mere flicker of a rise out of me.

I would truly appreciate some proper advice here, and not just anecdotal evidence of what jolly larks life is down under. THIS IS A MAJOR MOVE, not a picnic in the Megaliesberg, this is my life.

I hope you understand Ajay.

No hard feelings,

Koen

[Marius]

Koen,

Right, I see the tone of your posts have changed, so maybe you are not the typical troll. Since you ask for some advice will give you some bare facts, warts and all, from my perspective and experience.Ek is so Afrikaans soos 'n ossewa ou broer, maar ek sal ter wille van die nie so 2 talige mense en Aussies wat dalk hierna kyk in Ingels griffel vandag.

It is NOT easy at all to immigrate. It is hard leaving your home country, fiends and family and in my case more than 300 years worth of roots.

Is it worth the move – 10000% yes. A GUARANTEE of a chance for you and the kids of a future. The rest is up to the individual. SO you control your own destiny.

Safety – There is of course crime here. It is dealt with swift and hard in MOST of the cases. Violent crime, very little but is does of course occur. NO WHERE near the scale as we are used to and normally the culprits are apprehended within days of weeks. Where I live the people leave their cars parked in the street, their garages or sheds are full of, well, you know, men’s stuff . My daughter walks 1km to the bus stop, on the bus, to school, back on the buss, no worries. Far far safer in general than what we were used to.We walk on the clean, tidy, not crowded beaches every weekend, no worries.

Immigrants are generally accepted, tolerated and welcomed. Most that is, the ones wanting to integrate and accept the Aussie way of life find it easy. The ones that want to still live in little isolated groups on the fringes, don’t contribute to society and violate or trash Australian way of life and things sacred find it hard and they are not tolerated so well by the locals. That goes for any nationality.

Australia has the lowest unemployment in decades, about 4,5 % currently. Many jobs for those wanting to work.

Now, the work place. As I said I have visited and got right into the inner workings of many companies here in Australia as part of my work ( Melbourne and Sydney that is ) and can very honestly say I have never seen the behaviour your friend describe. That does not mean it did not happen, very possibly, but it would be by far the exception, NOT the rule. Australians are in my experience hard working and competent. There are like any country in the world also some plain incompetent people in some positions, but again it not the rule but the exception. That’s life in any country. They also have high regard for family life and values, therefore you might find more people trying to find ways of balancing family and work life than we are possibly used to. We are used to hard toil with perhaps in some cases the balance tipped more towards work than family, here the balance in general is more evenly balanced. I can honestly say I work very well, am treated good and cant complain about my work environment in any way ( not more than one would anywhere else ). I however know some find it harder to adjust or just not lucky enough to immediately find the best job. Like anything new it takes time to find the best fit.

Many people that come here are prepared and actually do take a few steps backwards in their career. But all in know ( including myself ) have within 1-3 years carved themselves a path open to where they were before or beyond that after coming to Australia in terms of career advancement. This is normally done by our build in sense of hard work, ability to muli-skill and can-do attitude. Saffers are known for that here.

Materialism. Now I have to confess I hate materialism, it was one of the big reasons I left SA. It is not common here. No0 one really cares where you live or what car you drive. They are more interested to see if you are the good bloke and do the right thing, that’s the yardstick. Again, this is in my experience the case in the vast majority. There are of course still people, that like to show status. Look at the roads, mostly normal every day Holdens, Fords and so on, few luxury cars, they are expensive and don’t sell well.

It is not the land of milk an honey, but very close. We don’t have rose tinted glasses on I can tell you ( well ok, maybe the first few weeks in the honeymoon phase )There are issues here that scratch a little for everyone in different ways. But in general and as far as we are concerned these little negatives are not even a speck of dust in comparison to the mountain of benefits gained by moving here.

Personally we are very happy here, will have permanent residency in a few weeks ( application for the 857 in last week ) and intend fully in getting citizenship as soon as possible. Does this mean we now hate South Africa. Hell no ! I have just found the environment there unacceptable to live in and have a family in. It is very sad I have to leave my own country to find a better life We therefore chose to change our environment. We are however 100% committed to Australia, pens en pootjies ! We respect other peoples wished and choice to remain there or even return, just don’t necessarily agree but cannot judge just as we don’t want to be judged for seeking a better life according to us.

I hope this clarified somewhat my own and my families reasoning and experience, as well as quite a few Saffers here I talk to from time to time.

If I was you, I would jump at the chance of getting a job in Melbourne, many pray for that chance, but that’s a decision you have to grapple with in your realm of beliefs and values. All I can say is get a broader perspective, not one opinion based on limited experience.

All the best, let us know how you go with the decision.

[Dedré]

Marius, I commend you for being so nice to the guy... darn good answer to anyone doubting to move.

Koen, I can guarantee you, a decent positive caring attitude in life, will get you far. Sit jou voette plat op die aarde, glimlag op na die son en dank ons Vader in die Hemel vir jou geleentheid om te kan besluit om te gaan, en die great advies wat mense geduldig vir jou gee op die forum...

Edited April 14, 2007 by Dedré

[matman]

I would truly appreciate some proper advice here, and not just anecdotal evidence of what jolly larks life is down under. THIS IS A MAJOR MOVE, not a picnic in the Megaliesberg, this is my life.

Koen - Many of us have had to make this tough life decision so please do not assume we dont understand what a big decision this is for you. many of us, including myself have already uprooted, left family behind and had to start all over again.

I also have to ask - have South Africans become so cynical that when we are presented with a good thing that we you automatically have to assume this cant be true - where's the catch. Have you thought of asking yourself why life cant be a jolly lark in Aus. Why is life so hard in S.A. and why have we all been forced to make this tough life decision.

There are many posts on this forum from people who have made the move and offer very personal advice and relate their stories - it would be very cyncical to call this anecdotal evidence especially as we have all lived these experiences. So in case you have missed some of the proper advice - I highlight the following posts for you.

Thoughts after After 7yrs

Great Expectations

Need info - want to move out of S.A.

Cost of Living

Good Luck with your decision and open your eyes and heart to the possibility that just maybe life can be a jolly lark in Australia.

rgds

matman

Edited April 13, 2007 by matman

[Koen]

DEDRE! I am sure Marius would not be too amused to be "amended" by anyone not even you. Us men have our pride you know, and are particularly sensitive about this issue. LOL

I will certainly be looking at those posts Matman. I don't think us South Africans have become so cynical that we cannot see a good thing when it comes our way, no, not at all, most of us are still quite sharp and even very well versed by this stage at how to turn a bad thing into a good thing, boer maak 'n plan has never been more valid. Comes with years of practise. Just the exchange rate alone could guarantee me a farm in the sun after just a few years.

But all those sacrifices, and will I want to return again? Will I have burnt all the bridges and start turning ugly, and pointing fingers at my fellow South Africans and all their ways that I so love, red necks us Afrikaaners and all. For me that would be a true tragedy and something I personally would find hard to learn to live with. I dont know how Dedre takes that quite so easily in her stride.

I will let you know of my decision in the coming weeks, unfortunately I don't have forever to decide, so I probably will not be as prepared as I would like to be. Even my mother is screaming at me from the kitchen at what a wasted opportunity it would be if I turned down the offer. But as I say to her, when I also have three sons sending home once a month what the average person here earns in a year, I might very well be saying the same thing. And just you wait if my sister decides to do the same thing, then all hell will break loose, I can guarantee that.

Edited April 14, 2007 by Koen

[Dax]

Howzit Koen,

Marius mentioned a whole lot of deep and true things in his post, and you should really think about it.

Hopefully I can add an extra perspective as well. If I share some ideas of my own experiences with you, hopefully you’ll see that while there are up and down sides, if you ‘byt vas’ you’ll come out on the other side OK. You see, I have been here number of years as well with my family, and let me add, our landing initially was not soft or quite so pleasant.

When you migrate on the Independent Visa like we did, you are basically on your own. While I am a qualified teacher, it was not my intention to teach here at the outset, I really wanted to give something else try. And that’s where our experience almost turned very sour. After applying, getting turned down and ending up in some dead-end jobs due to my experience etc., I realized that I will have to do what I do best, be a teacher.

However, even with me being registered as a teacher, when I really tried to get into the teaching set-up, I realized getting into the South Australian Teaching system was not exactly a 1-2-3 and hey Presto! sort of thing. My goal was to obtain permanent status, as I have known it in RSA as soon as possible, but for that in the south Oz system as it was then, you had to jump through some hoops for permanency, ESPECIALLY in the Adelaide Metro Area.

To win permanency you had some choices

1. Work as a Temporary Relief Teacher at schools, hope for contracts, and hope that the contracts will lead to permanency. This option almost never worked – ask ANY South Aussie Teacher.

2. Go and teach in a rural location for a few years to win permanency that way. A lot of younger Teachers do this and succeed.

3. Apply for positions “hard-to-staff” schools with bl##dy challenging children, hack it for at least 3 years in such a setting and you win permanency. The latter is what worked for me, and I have been permanent for the past seven years. (I should also add that the system have changed over the last 3 years or so, and nowadays it is much easier to win permanency in the Metropolitan Area.

Why do I mention all this?

* The thing is to do all these things was NOT easy. (Remember: Migration is not for Sissies.)

* Many days I felt some despair while I sukkeled and battled to get my head around a new education system while working with kids whom one describe with the cynical politically correct jargon as being “challenging.”

* What kept me going was to remember what I have left behind, to think of my family who depended on me, I had NO choice, I HAD to be successful. Daar was dae wat ek moes kophou soos ‘n dronk weerluis op ‘n warm sinkplaat.

* What saw me through in the end was my family, but also the support of a lot of Aussie workmates. My experience was that if you work hard, ask questions and cooperate, you could always count on your Aussie workmates and their sense of mateship and giving a person a fair go. In return, of course they expect (rightly so in my opinion), that you look out for them as well.

* In my present worksite this is part of the way we operate as teachers. We look out for each other. We help each other with challenging kids, we share resources and ideas, in short we are each other’s "professional best friends".

* As I stated in an earlier post I had a brush with some ‘red necks’ but in my experience they are a minority and in the case I described, when my other workmates realized what went on, they closed ranks behind me and that was the end of the matter.

* Nowadays, thanks to ‘vasbyt’ and the help of especially Aussie workmates and friends (it’s amazing how Aussies in your church can support you), we have settled in, and we can say honestly that all in all, our life in Oz is better than it was in RSA.

And lastly

I hope you will make the journey over here soon. Don’t let the experience of one person who gave you one side of a situation (probably a small part of a small picture) cloud your perception. It is you who will have to make the decisions, do the hard work, know when it is time to ask for help, or know when its time to go down on your knees and pray.

Australia is NOT a land of milk and honey, it is merely a better and safer place than the RSA we who have made the move have left behind.

Cheers,

Dax

Edited April 14, 2007 by Dax

[Dax]

DEDRE! I am sure Marius would not be too amused to be "amended" by anyone not even you. Us men have our pride you know, and are particularly sensitive about this issue. LOL

I will certainly be looking at those posts Matman. I don't think us South Africans have become so cynical that we cannot see a good thing when it comes our way, no, not at all, most of us are still quite sharp and even very well versed by this stage at how to turn a bad thing into a good thing, boer maak 'n plan has never been more valid. Comes with years of practise. Just the exchange rate alone could guarantee me a farm in the sun after just a few years.

But all those sacrifices, and will I want to return again? Will I have burnt all the bridges and start turning ugly, and pointing fingers at my fellow South Africans and all their ways that I so love. For me that would be a true tragedy and something I personally would find hard to learn to live with.

I will let you know of my decision in the coming weeks, unfortunately I don't have forever to decide, so I probably will not be as prepared as I would like to be. Even my mother is screaming at me from the kitchen at what a wasted opportunity it would be if I turned down the offer. But as I say to her, when I also have three sons sending home once a month what the average person here earns in a year, I might very well be saying the same thing. And just you wait if my sister decides to do the same thing, then all hell will break loose, I can guarantee that.

I posted my "epistle" before I saw this post.

Whatever your decision it will be the right one for you, I'm sure.

However, from what I can glean from your posts, you seem to have the mettle and "go-for-it" mindset to succeed, if even you had to sukkel at times.

Like i implied in my previous post once you are here and th edie is cast, other forces comes into play, and when you realise it's time that you "start swimming or sink like stone" (to quote Bob Dylan), you also become aware of energies and resilience that you NEVER knew you had before.

Cheers and sincere best wishes,

Dax (Johann)

Edited April 15, 2007 by Dax