Negative experience in the workplace

[Koen]

I wanted to ask some of you for your opinion on something that I was told by a colleague. She said all the same things about the unprofessional attitude and disorganisation in the work place, generally a feeling that that there is also simply a lack of proper protocol to get anything done, who you re reporting to and who is reporting to you and so on and on.

She only lasted a few months in the post before returning to South Africa back to her old position, thankfully as she is top drawer as far as getting a job done, but she came back with a lot of nasty things to say. Are first impressions the ones to go by, or do some things actualy change after you have been there awhile.

What struck me as being pretty bad and not just your basic homesick and slightly disorientated newbie, was that she found it basically impossible to deal with her bosses (also women) profanities. The F word was used like you or I might say cool! Even on greeting it was F'ing nice day and F'ing this and F'ing that.

Is this quite common down under? I am a totally well socialised male and usually politically correct but this would drive me to get fired I am sure? My colleague is a good Christian, and I think she must have found this whole thing very insulting and morally reprehensible, and hardly surprising too. How do other people cope with this kind of situation?

Edited April 9, 2007 by Koen

[Dreamcatcher]

Hi there,

Bronwyn, as you have been keeping us up to date on all your adventures, I was waiting for this one. We all go through it, and I was wondering how you would experience it. All my hugs and good thoughts to you, I know you'll come through in the end.

Something that I noticed, is that we cannot compare most offices to our work experiences in SA. What we call professionalism, is a foreign concept here, in a lot of cases. Please note that it is not everywhere, just so general that it is noticeable. Usually, us SAffers jump in and try to reorganise the whole company, create systems and clean out years of backlog. This makes us everyones hero, and we add to our reputation of "SAffers are hard workers". Unfortunately, as you settle in to the country and the job, the Aussie way of life and work starts rubbing off on you, and you start relaxing. Now you are no longer running around like a chicken without a head, trying to do 4 people's jobs in one day. We start getting upset, because our colleagues are doing "nothing" and we have to do all the work. But we trained them into this! Please don't fall into this trap. When you start a new job, pace yourself right from the start. Do only 70% of what you know you are capable of, the others will still be doing less than you! It is nice to be praised and marveled at, but it is hard to keep up the superwoman guise, especially as you have to adapt to doing the housework as well. You also need this "leisure" time at work to be able to learn and adapt to your new environment.

Koen, bad language is a reality everywhere. It does happen, here as well as in SA. A friend of mine has been in a similar situation here, and she went and talked to her superior about her behaviour. This person had not even realised that the way she spoke was upsetting others. She apologised and is genuinely trying to change her ways. It took one sincere person to show her very nicely, that she is doing the wrong thing, and now things are going better. Not perfect yet, but better.

We cannot try and change the way Aussies do things, the best we can do is to compromise. Teach them some of your skills, and from them: learn to relax and that there is always a tomorrow.

Greetings,

Dreamy

[Marius]

Koen,

No it is NOT common here, rather the exception. I can with confidence say this, i have travelled Melbourne and Sydney as part of my work extensively in AUstralia to many companies and this so called"" unorganised" workplace is by far the expection rather than the rule.IN fact most Australian companies are very well managed, look at the economy.You are however expected, expecially as a skilled immigrant, to produce your "pound of flesh" so to speak.Hard professional high standard work is absolutely expected. Some immigrants find this hard as they might have been used to a more comfortable existance. Again not all that battle to adjust to the workplace here are in this category either, also rather the exception, dont get me wrong. Most people settle in fairly well.I have in my travels in Australia ( Melbourne and Sydney extensively ) met also quite a few migrants, also Saffers. The overwhelmig majority are very happy in their new country and jobs. The exceptions either way might just be unable to adjust for whatever reason.This does not mean there are not employers out there that are unorganised or unfair, they also exsit,in minority. I suggest report them.

[Marius]

Dreamy, you say - "When you start a new job, pace yourself right from the start. Do only 70% of what you know you are capable of, the others will still be doing less than you! It is nice to be praised and marveled at, but it is hard to keep up the superwoman guise, especially as you have to adapt to doing the housework as well. You also need this "leisure" time at work to be able to learn and adapt to your new environment."

I cant say I agree 100%. Doing only 70% at work is not the best way to go into a new job, this is what makes some employers sack people, in fact, especially new people immigrating with skills they need to prove. The general brush stoke you apply is not totally representative of all employers or employees here,you are saying all Aussies do less than 70% at work I dont recommend anyone start their working careers here like this, you will get noticed and be dealt with accordingly. The coping without help at home, well, that should be known before hand and is really not a big issue at all. It cannot be used to justify slacking off at work surely .Thats how I see it in any case, dont mean to sound to harsh but I think it needs saying.

[Dreamcatcher]

OK, sorry, maybe I did not express myself very well. I suppose most of what everyone says on this forum are generalisations. Let me rephrase my suggestion then: start out your new job at 100% your capacity, not 130%. Everyone else is only doing 100%, and you cannot keep it up all the time.

All I meant was that you don't have to try and be superwoman/man from the start. Give yourself a chance to adapt and get used to new surroundings. Some people (me included) start out wearing masks and trying so hard to be accepted. Over time these masks get really heavy, and you cannot keep up the pace you set for yourself. The whole pace of life is different in Australia (that is my personal experience). Most people I know don't try and do the work of 4 people, as I was accustomed in SA. Personally I am not working under the constant threat of "having a hundred people waiting in line for my job". That does not mean I have do it any different than in SA, I just don't have to be so frantic about it. I can actually perform better, because I feel valued and I am being paid well for what I do. This alone gives me pride in what I do, and helps me do it to the best of my ability, as I now have a much stronger sense of loyalty and personal value.

The Aussies work really hard, they are just more relaxed about it. It is an attitude we need to learn. Once again, all of this is just my own opinions and perceptions, and need not be taken to heart if it does not align with your own views.

Greetings,

Dreamy

[Marius]

Dreamy,

No worries, I understand what you are saying and agree. Us South Africans are generally able to do multiple aspects of our jobs and related fields apart for the core fuction and skill. We had to work this way because that’s how you stayed ahead of the rest in SA, generally. This ability is recognised and appreciated here, we are generally seen as skilled and very competent. But as you say here it is not necessarily expected to work like this, although we tend to work like this naturally and this could lead to over performing in a way I guess where it is not required ( well, not by default but certainly handy to have the ability ). It could also be exploited I suppose.So ja it is probably good to accept a slight change in pace or maybe more a change of focus when you start a new job here. We also tend to have defensive barriers up all the time again in my opinion due to our previous work environment,possibly even social environment we lived in. This can also lead to some issues in the workplace here if the barriers are always up and never let down.

[Koen]

As far as my colleague is concerned she tells me using (insulting and culturally insensitive) profanities in the work place is very very common and even more surprising perhaps for some, is that woman seem to almost take pride in doing so, makes em feel up there with the boys possibly?

My colleague is also not a drinker and she was expected to go for drinks every Friday with the office and this she said was her worst nightmare. Not that she was forced to drink even though there was certainly a hint of the fact that she wasn't "playing ball", but she never felt pressurised into more than a glass of sparkling water, but what with the alcohol and loose talk, was totally and repeatedly disgusted by the language she was subjected to, coming from all sides, not just their group but the whole happening down the entire street.

How does one approach this? It seems to me to be a very difficult one, especially for religious and politically correct workers, who feel very differently and are very sensitive to this kind of work environment. Is this just part of a different culture that one must accept?

I wonder if the actual work practises in the office that she found so irritating have not got something to do with the heavy unionisation of the work force in Australia? People only doing so much and no more, as described in their job descriptions, so you get an office full of people doing their thing but not stepping outside their box (mind set) to co-ordinate and maintain a free flow of constructive idea, and in a nut shell get the actual job done.

This is very different to South Africa, but was quite similar to the UK, though in the UK, since Prime minister Thatcher, this has changed dramatically. I think South Africans are maybe expected to do far more because they don't have the same constraints of mind set, and can actualy multi-task as a result, so as such can easily be taken advantage of, and end up doing everything and in isolation to?

Edited April 10, 2007 by Koen

[Ajay]

Hi Koen,

I'm stunned at the generalisations being thrown around here! I think your colleague perhaps needs to get off her moral soapbox and realise that she simply joined a company that had a specific culture and flavour that didn't suit her, and it was not about to change to meet her exacting standards. I'm sorry for being a bit harsh, but generalisations are the one thing that get my back up every time. Is the insinuation that in order to work in Australia, you need to be able to drink and swear?

Each company and workplace has its own culture and companies have definite personalities. These either suit you or they don't. If they don't, you can make the decision to leave and find something that fits you better, but to then go out and tar every Australian company with the same brush - i.e. you need to be able to drink like a fish and swear like a trooper in order to be accepted is just plain dumb. I worked for many companies in SA and have worked for 2 here in Sydney. No two are the same - some have a stronger social aspect than others, some have younger people, some more conservative. The chances of finding a company where merriment is encouraged is just as high in SA as it is in Australia. It sounds to me like the colleague in question could not cut it, for whatever reason, and the only excuse she can come up with is because the "women swore and they had drinks on a Friday night".....yeah, right Just so we're clear here, how many companies did she work for, and how long was she here?'

This is exactly the kind of attitude that gets us SAffers into trouble here. We take the moral high ground and think it is our position to judge anyone who has a different set of beliefs or attitudes or behaviours. And not only that, we have the audacity to expect them to change to suit us! Let me be the first one to warn everyone out there - it ain't gonna happen. Australians are happy to welcome us with open arms, but if we think, for one second, that we have the right to judge them, think again.

Sorry - this is harsher than intended but I'm really angry

Ajay

[Dedré]

When one goes to another country one has to accept and do as they do. One has to realise that you are in their world now, they are not in yours at all!

You do not have to leave your values behind. In fact, your values make you rise in their world.

Koen, I think she was an insecure, critical person, wanting others to bend over to her needs and move at her command. In SA there is a very hard and crude way of doing business. She took that way of doing business with her to Auz. That to me, is the biggest mistake one can make.

Learn the new ways of doing things, accept the people for whom they are, don't loose yourself, love the decisions you made!

She did none of those, how will she ever succeed in life?

[Dreamcatcher]

As far as my colleague is concerned she tells me using (insulting and culturally insensitive) profanities in the work place is very very common and even more surprising perhaps for some, is that woman seem to almost take pride in doing so, makes em feel up there with the boys possibly?

Koen,

Women do not need to drink and swear to "feel up there with the boys". In Australia men and women are treated equal, or so I have experienced in my short time here. Somehow you're getting the wrong information.

Australians can think out of the box - more so than you think. How do you think they keep their country as clean, crime-free and successful as it is? Just because they do things differently, does not mean they are inferior to South Africans.

Greetings,

Dreamy

[Koen]

I think there are some rather irrational and defensive responses here, and totally uncalled for in my opinion. My colleague is in the pharmaceutical industry doing medical editing for drug companies, not exactly the kind of workplace where you would expect to find this sort of behaviour.

The point is she is a very good worker and has no attitude at all, she is very quietly spoken and pleasant and gets on with the job extremely well. In fact because she is Afrikaans she is perhaps even more polite and friendly than most, trying to give a good impression of South Africa.

I find it extraordinary that people would leap to the defence of some truly terrible co-workers just because they are Australian. Remember some people who go out to live in Australia are doing so because they find themselves a very good job, they don't have this idea that they can simply change jobs once there, and often this is just not possible as their might not be the same positions available. So a lot more thought, just over their careers alone, had to go into this.

For her, you have to imagine leaving South Africa full of optimism and excitement with a new and exciting challenging position awaiting, was turned simply into a nightmare. All insinuations that it was of her own making and that she was expecting the extraordinary in a work place are based on nothing more than your own bias. If you met her you would immediately want to invite her for a nice relaxed braai. People can be religious and tolerant you know, they can not drink and still be fun? Surely?

I suggested to her that she should go on a cross cultural training course before she left but she thought just like a lot of us do or rather did, that Australians are just like us back home. For her it was a huge and wasted enterprise and lost oppertunity. I mean just consider the IT person arriving to work and saying what a F'ing bunch of SH' traffic there is this morning??? I cannot believe anyone of you would be sitting there with the same sactimonious smile on your face in that situation. I truly cannot.

[Bob]

It doesn't sound, to me, that your mate was working in a real flash place.

How come she didn't put the word out that she was looking for another job? . . . a place where the troops didn't cause so much offence to her?

There's more than one company in the whole of Australia.

There must be another reason why she trekked off back to Sth Africa . . . homesick, family needed her, etc. . . . . and that was the real catalyst.

I don't think her future is going very far over the next few years back home.

The years will prove whether I'm right or not.

I just hope that she makes it back to Australia and gives the place a fair go.

Edited April 10, 2007 by Bob

[Koen]

I don't think she will be in a hurry to do that Bob. There was no other reason for her to come back, though I can imagine her having wanted to invent a few just to make that possible. Medical editing jobs are not that easy to find, and especially ones that are as well paid as hers was. She is a qualified doctor and was offered a very reasonable salary and the company she moved to in Australia is very respected and well known.

Look no country is perfect this is true, I have even seen "anti-profanity in the work place" drives by governments in the UK plus many campaigns to reduce alcohol abuse worldwide. This is not that unusual. It is usually just one or two people in a workplace and they can usually be sufficiently subdued with the support of colleagues.

But when it becomes something of a national trait one is pretty much helpless. I personally would try not to let it worry me, but then I am not a practising Christian and I enjoy a dop after work anytime. But for some people it is a truly horrific assault on their personal space and well being, and I sympathise with that, and I respect it above all, I truly do.

Maybe there is a point in that it could be more prevalent in lets say Sydney for example than elsewhere. Most of her colleagues are young like herself and tend to be upwardly mobile, but that doesn't make it acceptable. The medical publishing world is not the biggest, its a small world, so believe me if she found it bad it must have been very bad.

[Cindylou]

I've split these posts from the previous thread as per Barnone's post. Hope no-one objects, but I do feel that these posts have wandered off the intital topic.

Cindylou

[Koen]

I thought it was about experiences in the work place? Is Barnone's single voice now that of a moderator? I would have thought at least Bronwyn could have a say in the issue as its she who is experiencing the difficulties???

[Dax]

My experience with settling into the workspace was different.

As a teacher, I had to get my head around a totally new educational philosophy (Constructivism) as opposed to Phenomenological Philosophy in South Africa.

So, I was basically in a learning curve from the start. I got a lot of support from colleagues, they knew I was a newbie from overseas, who had to learn.

However, before that I made the mistake to clam up and try to re-invent the wheel on my own. As a result I was plodding along, making mistakes on mistakes. Unless you tell workmates that you are in need of help and support, they are going to think that you know what you should know, and in a worst case scenario, regard your honest mistakes as incompetence.

Once I leveled with my colleagues, they supported me to the hilt and literally within week I was on my feet, still not south Australia’s No. 1 teacher, but I felt positive and in control.

Nowadays I carry on as if I have been in the system for decades, never mind a few years.

But then, as I have said in another thread, Australia has its fair share of “red necks” and I have had a brush with some of them. Be careful when you realize you are up against one of them though. The thing is that they can be very sophisticated. In my case the attack was disguised as pointing out a mistake. An example: a school assistant who did not like me much, once noticed that I was running defrag on my class computer. (AT that time our school had an eccentric IT Focus Person who felt that ordinary teachers were too dumb to use desktop tools on a PC.) I was promptly reported to the principal, hauled in to her office for a berating. Luckily I was a member of the Teachers Union and our Branch Secretary saw through the whole thing for what it was, and in the end the tables actually were turned.

Like I mentioned in my article on teaching in South Australia, they are the far, far minority, but there are a few (not more than 2 or 3 to my knowledge) school-worksites in Adelaide that should be avoided like the pest. If you are a prospective teacher, PM me and I’ll wisen you up.

All in all, I would say that as long as you keep yourself positive, hanging in there, you should be OK. Just remember, if you suddenly think you are between a rock and a hard place, ask questions, get opinions and network wit anybody who can help you. Focus on people who have been in your type of job longer and in various settings.

In situations like these it’s better to have too much information than too little.

Also, remember, you job is your bread and butter, it the defining factor that will determine your landing here, your setting in and becoming a part of the community. (You need to be good at you r job in order to hold onto it.) Therefore I would suggest that especially at the start, give it your all. When you have your job figured out and down pat, then you can start to focus on other priorities. In the first year or so, I sacrificed a lot of social and family things in order to create a niche for myself in my work sphere to the extent where I felt that I was as good here in Oz, as I was in RSA. To get your head around a totally new Education System is NOT difficult, it only take a bit of time.

Cheers,

Dax

Edited April 10, 2007 by Dax

[Dedré]

Koen,

Sorry if I misunderstood your question/comment. I also read through my comment again and boy it sounds cruel. I understand that it was read in that way... I truly apologise! Please accept my apologies (to everyone else also reading).

What I meant to say was:

Not all SA'cans are racist, as not all Australians are ill-mannered at the work place. People are people and make of life what they want it to be. We all operate in a different way. But one must be careful to dictate to others in their country on how to do things and how "behind" they are on doing things. It's their country, one might just come across as critical (like I did! ).

If she is a nice person, she will decide to be happy and accept things. It is a tough world out there. You can be her mentor maybe to see that Oz is not the bad place she is experiencing, but a nice place like you experience it. Maybe she needs a good friend. You might just be that person.

Please clarify if I did not understand your statement / question correctly. The last thing that we should do is "redekawel?" between friends. Please tell us, are you asking, or stating her actions and words? I was in the UK as well. Everyone went drinking from early each Friday. I did not, but I was still able to be happy at the work place (and be a Christian). But given, I look at life differently and I didn't work in a cutthroat environment.

Help me please... Talk to me... If there is advice to be given, we can give it!

[Dedrei]

Hi Koen

I totally agree with what Cindy-Lou did as you were sort of hijacking Bronwyn's thread. This way anybody can respond to your concern seperate from Bronwyn's original post.

We on the forum listen to what our members concerns are and act on it, if and when appropriate. Even if Barnone had not mentioned the fact, we would have still split your topic from Bronwyn's.

Hope you understand.

Cheers

D

[Mara]

I have worked for four companies since I landed in Australia, nearly 10 years ago. Every one of them was totally different to the next. In some it was the given that there were drinks at the pub on Friday after work, I never attended. When asked about it, I said that as I do not enjoy a drink, and as a wife, mother and household executive, I have a million things to get done, I will pass on the drinks. They just had a chuckle, and said they would rather have the drink! They never held my absence against me. In another of the companies where I worked I had a workmate that would be totally dumb if you took the swear words out of his mouth. Well I had a quiet word with him, told him how unpleasant he made it for the rest of us, and wouldn't it be nicer if we could all work in a pleasing environment. At first he was real mad at me, but with time the swearing became less and less. So yes, not every work place is ideal, but I have found the Aussies to be good people, they do not force you to join their standards, just do not go around telling them they are wrong!

[Riekie]

Koen, for better search functionality, we split threads if the content of the posts distract too much from the original post. Bronwyn's post was a general "feeling blue" post to which not only her day at work, but also other factors contributed, making it more a topic of how to deal with the days which are not so good. The thread has taken on a "aussie workplace ethics" approach and therefor it was split form Bronwyn's. Simple as that.

You seem a bit frustrated (and maybe misunderstood) in general. Why don't you post a bit about yourself and where you are in the emigration process to give us a better understanding of where you're coming from - there's nothing in your profile to give us an idea of your current situation and for all we know you may be sitting in Chicago dying to get to Aus! We are here to help you find the answers!

[Ajay]

Hi Koen,

I don’t want to be argumentative, but I can’t help but point out the irony of your comment about how you find it “extraordinary that people would leap to the defence of some truly terrible co-workers just because they are Australian” where you expect us to accept that you, or more accurately your colleague, sees fit to condemn an entire continent (national trait??) based on what seems to have been a relatively short experience with these same co-workers? Why is it OK for someone that was here for only a few months to make a sweeping judgement on the absence of moral fibre of all Australians (and in fact, on all people that swear and indulge in a drink on a Friday after work), but not OK for us that have lived and worked here for years to take an opposing view?

But really, what I am more offended by is the insinuation that anyone that swears or enjoys a drink on a Friday after work is somehow morally bankrupt. I love a couple of glasses of wine and I confess to using profanity with alarming regularity. In fact, I'm probably the one complaining about the f'ing traffic, as you put it. However, I also am deeply spiritual, have a marriage well into its second decade, have raised 2 beautiful children and contribute to & participate in a number of chartiable efforts and community services. Yet your colleague considers it her right, as a Christian, to judge me as disgusting and reprehensible because I might swear or have a drink after work on a Friday?

I've learned, over the years, that people should be judged on whether they are good or evil - simple. That isn't to say that you need to like everyone that you meet, or even approve of their choices. But very few among us have earned the right to judge others. Perhaps if we, as a nation, were less eager to pass judgement on our peers, we would have the kind of society that Australia has - one where everyone is accepted as a mate and a good person until they prove otherwise.

Cheers

Ajay

[Dreamcatcher]

In fact because she is Afrikaans she is perhaps even more polite and friendly than most, trying to give a good impression of South Africa.

Hi Koen,

Kyk man, ek is so Afrikaans as kan kom, en dit maak my ou hartjie warm dat jy dink ons Afrikaanse meisies is so ordentlik!

Ons is nie hier om met mekaar te baklei nie, en dis die laaste ding wat ek wil doen. As jy enige direkte vrae het, ons sal jou eerlik antwoord, maar onthou dat elke persoon slegs kan antwoord uit eie ondervinding, en dit geld ook vir jou vriendin. Dis nie dat ons dink sy het NIE 'n slegte ervaring gehad nie, ons voel net dis onregverdig om almal nou onder dieselfde kam te skeer. Meeste van ons hier het beide goeie en slegte ondervindings gehad, en glo my, ek is een van hulle wat sleg deurgeloop het. Dit gee my nog steeds nie die reg om almal te oordeel as gevolg daarvan nie. Hier is baie wonderlike mense hier in Australië, eerlike Godvresende mense. Dit vat net tyd om vir jouself 'n plekkie in die son oop te skrop, en die mense te vind met wie jy graag jou vriendekring wil bou.

Groetnis,

Dreamy

[Koen]

Dreamy very good points you make. It is always best to give both sides to a story anyway. This is only fair. Sorry I don't have time to read through all the posts here, but will eventually.

I do believe very sincerely that Afrikaans people generally have a much higher level of respect for their hosts and colleagues than most other people perhaps, maybe its upbringing and a deep Christian responsibility, I don't know, but they make a huge effort to treat people with a lot of respect and kindness thats for sure. I am not just saying this because I am South African, but because I live in the real world and have experience this for my self. If I ever find myself in the lucky position to be able to choose who I work with, I have no doubt who I would prefer to be dealing with.

So it saddened me to hear so much gun-shot fired from so many people here about how my friend was a hard nosed so and so with attitude and a bad working ethic that she brought with her. That all her sensitivities and trust were so badly taken for a ride seemed to them to matter nothing? This is nasty and leaves a very bitter taste here on the forum. I see I will have to choose my friends a little bit more carefully in the future.

Look people go to Australia and other places away from home for many different reasons, some do it because they see a brighter future in a career, and then everything else is secondary, some get there and like it so much they decide to compromise the hard part and make a place for themselves, in and out of jobs moving houses towns, just making a life that is more than just work. Others, older, more settled people, are foremost looking to start a new life. But others naively think all you need is a ticket a good job a big heart and a big smile.

I think for a lot of people they imagine Australia just to be a better South Africa and nothing more, but sadly this is not entirely correct, life is just not so simple always. It can be, but we are not all made of iron.

[Hendrik]

*gaap*

Tienduisend kilometer weg en ons kan nog steeds nie een party vorm nie.

Edited April 11, 2007 by Hendrik

[G72]

Some advice Koen

If you insist on defending ridiculous generalizations on the Australian work ethic here - don't expect support on this forum