Churches in Australia/Belief in God

[Springjock]

I am a practising Freemason. It's an amazing organisation that can list some of the worlds most respected men among its ranks, including some very prominent South Africans like Paul Kruger, some of the Oppenheimers and even a certain Generaal Del La Rey. It is not a religion, nor is it a substitute for religion. It accepts men of all faiths and is a model of tolerance, charity and brotherly love.

[Springjock]

Sianvz, what makes you say 'eek' when referring to a Freemasons lodge? I'm not looking for an argument, I just want to know

[AndreaL]

I just assumed that Sianvz's response was because Freemasonry is misunderstood, and some people afford it cult like status, hence my attempts to explain, but it would be interesting to know what the " eek" was for.

I'm totally amazed out how many of us have connections to Freemasons, what a diverse bunch we are, and how far off topic we have gone.....lol

[sianvz]

Sorry didn't mean to offend anyone with the eek comment! It was a bit insensitive of me.

To help you understand, my mom was married to a freemason (my step dad) and it all seemed so kind and caring in the beginning but as he got more involved, she overheard many conversations that disturbed her (I'm not going to get into this on here). Anyway, she is no longer married to him (not going to get into this on here either). I went to a Christian high school and made my own decision in my faith over the years and also made the choice to research things to make myself more knowledgeable as a Christian so that I am aware of what is around me.

In my personal opinion, I believe freemansonry is covered by the impression of good deeds and caring. A lot of the practises high up in freemansonry, which I have learned from research, go against my beliefs as a Christian and as a result I don't believe the two can go hand-in-hand. Hence the eek with regards to the church being next door to the lodge.

Please understand that this is purely my opinion based on extensive research (which could be wrong but it was enough for me to establish my viewpoint on this), apologies to anyone who I offend. Everyone is completely entitled to their beliefs and I do not judge a single one of you as my belief is mine and yours is yours. Religious discussions are always a sore point.

[Springjock]

Your experiences are your experiences but there's absolutely nothing in freemasonry that could be considered contrary to Christianity or any other religion. This is why so many men of the cloth, pastors, priests, rabbis etc are freemasons. Some radical Christians don't like the fact that we don't acknowledge Jesus Christ in our rituals. Instead, we refer to the 'great architect of the universe'. This is because there are jews, Muslims etc in freemasonry. They just don't get that its all about tolerance. There are some negative, nasty things on the Internet about freemasonry and its mostly these radicals sprouting absolute nonsense.

[OubaasDik]

Your experiences are your experiences but there's absolutely nothing in freemasonry that could be considered contrary to Christianity or any other religion. This is why so many men of the cloth, pastors, priests, rabbis etc are freemasons. Some radical Christians don't like the fact that we don't acknowledge Jesus Christ in our rituals. Instead, we refer to the 'great architect of the universe'. This is because there are jews, Muslims etc in freemasonry. They just don't get that its all about tolerance. There are some negative, nasty things on the Internet about freemasonry and its mostly these radicals sprouting absolute nonsense.

Heck if you read some stuff they're a branch of the Illuminati bringing in the New World Order, and if you read Dan Browne, the Vatican has got anti-matter bombs. In my jaded opinion equally worthy of attention. For what my opinion is worth.

[Springjock]

Yip and Elvis and Bigfoot are the leaders of us all....

[sianvz]

Please understand that my research is most definitely not based on the internet.

I seem to have opened up a can of worms here with a simple "eek". I very wrongly assumed that all Christians had the same belief as me when it comes to freemasonry because of the Christian teaching that there is only one true God and that there seems no good reason to want to join a brotherhood made up of people believing in different Gods if the Bible teaches these same principles of being kind and caring to one another.

Christianity is Christianity. There should be no scale of intensity ie radical Christians. Please understand that I do not believe I am perfect, extremely far from it in fact, but my belief and faith as a Christian teaches me to strive to be like Christ where ever possible in my life, within my human capacity. As a result I have learned a very good lesson through this, to be more sensitive to others' beliefs.

May I propose that we leave this where it is at and avoid any further comments that may offend anyone?

Edited March 2, 2013 by sianvz

[Mikej]

In Australia I love that I can identify as an atheist without fear of being stigmatized. It says a lot for Australians that the faithful and irreligious live together in peace practicing tolerance without a second thought.

Edited March 2, 2013 by Mikej

[Springjock]

There is no offence taken. As a Freemason, I am highly tolerant, whereas you, as you have clearly indicated, believe its your way or the highway. But that's cool. Best wishes

[Toitjie]

The centre of my belief system rests on tolerance and acceptance, and being a good person. Sadly I have seen so much intolerance in South Africa. People are scared of those that are different and is quick to label, criticise and push them away. If children do not fit a very specific little box with a specific label, they are called names and rejected by their peers.

From what I read in this thread, in Oz there is so much more tolerance for being different, believing something different, even looking different, that I truly look forward to being in a mature society that isnt scared of accepting everyone, differences and all.

[Springjock]

Very true Toitjie.

[rozellem]

I always got the idea that mixing with people from other beliefs were encouraged. That way you could show others how you conducted yourself in an admirable way, could break down barriers of suspicion with information, really get to practice the teachings of tolerence, love, brotherhood, etc and thus perhaps "recruit" others by your example.

Like I have mentioned before, I go to a few playgroups run by various churches. You dont have to be a member, they embrace all people who turn up. That way they plant the seed that they are perhaps a group investigating further, no pressure.

Back in the day we had a formal Druid wedding......aaaaand next Sunday, I will be taking the kids to the church of my lovely playgroup. Watch this space.

[AndreaL]

Back in the day we had a formal Druid wedding.

ooh, that sounds so wonderful. Hubby and I have a special place that we visit, with a beautifully quiet beach, I was even lucky enough to see turtles being born on this beach.......anyway, someday I would love to have a handfasting ceremony on this beach. I am lucky to have the most beautiful and spiritual friend as a wedding celebrant, she is very earth connected and offers various celebrations for all the important rites of passage in a women's life.

She recently did the most beautiful naming ceremony for a little baby, where butterflies were released from a box, it sounded beautiful.

[Springjock]

Just a point of interest for those of you following My Kitchen Rules in Oz. You know the grand building with the chequer floors, beautiful pillars and staircase where the judges and contestants gather at the end of shows to see who is eliminated? That's Freemasons grand lodge building on North Terrace in Adelaide. It's a beautiful building and there are free guided tours for the public on an almost daily basis. The university of Adelaide also uses its various halls for lectures and exams. So much for the 'secret' society!

[AndreaL]

I'm with CQUniversity and we do our exams in the Masonic hall, of course I live in a tiny town so it is just a rather plain and unassuming building.

And the organisation I volunteer at runs a program called STAR (students st risk) and provides money for school books and uniforms for families that are doing it tough, as well as paying for school camps etc, this is totally funded by the masons.

Our once a month Sunday market is also run by them, usually it is rotary, Lions or masons that run these kind of markets in Australia.

How come Rotarians don't attract the same kind of negativity, as they seem to be a similar kind of organisation ( I had to google them because I don't know too much about them other that they support communities, and when I googled, up popped a picture of Desmond Tutu in an advert to end polio)

I'm genuinely curious and don't want people to get nasty or offended or this informative thread will end up headed to the cooler.

p.s. I love that members are sharing some wonderful insights into who they are as people and can honestly say that I have never once been asked or judged about my belief systems here in Australia, but am often pleasantly surprised to encounter an incredible diversity of beliefs and attitudes.

[Springjock]

Freemasons don't attract negativity, it is just people who chase a different agenda who sprout negativity. Freemasonry is not a religious organisation but to be a member, you must believe in a supreme being (a benevolent god, not the devil or any other evil thing). This mere fact is enough to make some people feel threatened. The vast majority of Freemasons are Christian, but we allow any 'accepted' religion amongst our ranks. If the world thought like Freemasons do, there would a lot less war and conflict. People like Sianvz can be quite adamant that they 'know' things about Freemasonry that aren't right, but I guarantee that it is either a mis-perception or the actions of someone who should never have been a mason in the first place. Remember, we aren't allowed to recruit member. If a man wants to join, he is accepted provided he has no criminal record and believes in God. One of the biggest myths is that you are 'chosen' as a mason. It's the opposite.

I totally reject assertions like Sianvz that Freemasonry isn't what it seems. I am in a leadership position here in Australia and lets just say i have my finger on the pulse of Freemasonry in SA. It's a beautiful art and a science that is good to the core.

[AndreaL]

I should have qualified my statement Springjock, remember that my brother, father-in-law and most of my uncles are Freemasons, all good people.

After logging off the forum last night I did a bit of googling and some of the bizarre beliefs about masons and utter rubbish written........

Actually I've just done the same with Rotarians and the nonsense that comes up. Why would anyone take the time to sprout such rot about organisations that benefit their communities so much. Fear and ignorance, I can only think.

I agree that you get bad eggs in all religions and organisations, we are in fact in the middle of a royal enquiry into child abuse in the church here in Australia, ( for those of you in RSA) but that doesn't mean that everyone affiliated with those churches is the same.

At the end of the day every man and woman is responsible for their own actions, good or bad.

[Sunnyskies]

Freemasons - I grew up thinking that they were a secret society, with a secret handshake and a love of leather aprons. Now I actually know a couple of Masons and they have explained their philosophy a bit further, I've worked out I don't have to worry about them baying at the moon, and they are a constructive part of society and that there are real benefits to being a member. Unfortunately as a woman I'm barred from membership - that for me is very archaic and unnecessary restriction. They are quite a different society to Rotary or the Lions, and probably a lot more useful to their members. In fact, the thing I find interesting is who is a Mason and what their level of leadership in the organisation is which often corresponds with their level of leadership in their businesses. I don't think that there is any reason to trash Masons, Rotarians or Lions. Just as there is no reason to trash the religious versus non-religious.

Anyway, back to Churches in Australia. The thing that I've noticed is that there appear to be fewer evangelical churches (like Rema), but a large number of traditional churches, whether Catholic, Anglican, Uniting or Baptist - although that may only be true for where I live. Unfortunately, like May I was very disappointed when we first went to church in Aus as it seemed to be a congregation of old people and I missed the vibrancy of my church in Jo'burg. When we went back to SA for a holiday in 2010 we went to mass on Easter Sunday, and I felt very emotional at how many people were in church and singing. However, what I have noticed is that while we generally never hung around after church in SA, here we often get delayed at the end of the service chatting to other families, so it is in fact more social.

Speaking to locals it appears that the religious orientation of each neighbourhood is quite distinct and they often know by reference to the suburb as to whether it is known to be aethiest, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, etc - yet another drawback to now having grown up here is that we often just don't know the nuances of the neighbourhoods we initially choose to live in. A bit like choosing to live in Brakpan not know that you more likely to be a Parkhurst kind of person - nothing wrong with either neighbourhood but they have different cultures.

One of the things I did before we moved here was to spend a lot of time on Wikipedia googling each of the neighbourhoods we thought about moving into. It gave me a definite sense of the demographics of each area, including the religious breakdown.

[Springjock]

I knew what you meant, AndreaL, no worries.

Sunny skies , you are 100% right, but we most certainly do have secret handshakes, but these are traditional and stem from the days where operative masons would travel around Europe looking for work on the sites of Europe's great cathedrals etc. Tradesmen were illiterate back then, so when they graduated from Apprentice to qualified mason, they weren't given a certificate to prove their proficiency, but a secret handshake and password, which they guarded fiercely, for obvious reasons - to protect their jobs! These traditions are passed on to today, but we don't walk around the streets giving each other funny handshakes. It's all part of the ritual. And yes, we do a lot of good work. Come to Adelaide and you can visit the Freemasons Centre For Men's Health at Adelaide University where treatments for men's illnesses such as prostate cancer are being researched.

Women are not allowed to become a Freemason and whilst this may be out of touch with modern norms, I have no issue with it. Our rituals are ancient and specifically focused on giving men the knowledge to become better men, better fathers and better husbands. God created men and women for a distinct reason, and in my opinion, we should be able to enjoy gender-specific activity. You don't see men trying to gate-crash antenatal classes, do you? Hehe ;-)

[AndreaL]

There is the Order of the Eastern Star for both sexes.

[AllisonW]

Actually springjock most men do attend antenatal classes with their partners.

I have no issue with freemasons but I really find the gender exclusion offensive.

[Springjock]

I was talking about the concept of childbirth. Life is full of barriers. We can't all have access to everything.

[OubaasDik]

Why don't we open the Men's Shed to all sexes?

It's excluding women, so it's probably offensive.

I'm quite happy to leave the ladies Lounge alone - I know that there are times when you girls want to get away - allow the guys the same privilege. please.

[Fish]

I went to have a look at the beautiful Freemasons lodge in Brisbane during the Brisbane Open House weekend (when many buildings are open to the public).

Some of the men there were explaining it to me...my honest reaction was that it felt politically conservative to me...god, king and country and all that entails...my impression was the type of place that entrenches privilege while also doing good work for its members. I had my lovely little family along with me - - and felt subtle recruitment cues from the men talking to me to the point where I told them I wouldn't qualify as I was an atheist. The attitude shift was immediately noticeable though we had already had a pleasant and informative chat so I was ok with it's termination. Personally I suspected I wouldn't agree with their conservative ethos in more ways than just god and had never had any interest in pursuing it further though the motto making good men better was an admirable goal.

I did somehow end up in the office of the grand master of qld after the open house was over (busy admiring his furniture) and he was a lovely warm man who was very hospitable and seemed a credit to the organisation.

Such a beautiful building...I recommend a look if you get the chance:

Source: heraldsun

Edited March 3, 2013 by Fish