Cyberdeth Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 I'm starting this thread coz I feel that people with non-mainstream religious / non-religious views are being censored. Here you can air your views without being persecuted. Sing with me :If you are an Atheist and you know it, clap your hands.If you are a Spiritualist and you know it, clap your hands.If you are a non-religious/non-mainstream religioust and you know it, and you really wanna show it, c'mon everybody, clap your hands.Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toitjie Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 This thread has the potential to go 2 ways, it will either be boycotted by members and no talk will take place, or it can be a huge success in creating a platform where we can talk.I will tell you - growing up, I had tons of questions, and the answer I always got was that we are not supposed to know and shouldnt ask, etc etc, that only stirred my curiosity further.. I am sure there are lots of people who dont want to admit that they are curious about how we came to be?? and Im not saying this from a religion / non-religion perspective - I mean it as normal human curiosity, not listening to what one person has to say to explain everything, but taking that chance and listening to what other people with different viewpoints have to say.When in school, there was a girl who was not shy to tell everyone her parents are atheists, and by default then she too. This is a big Pretoria East high school, and she was branded, did not have many friends, but I always felt sorry for her the way people treated her, as if she had an infectious disease.I grew up with the "knowledge" that atheists are very bad, almost like satanists, and that I should steer clear. Its a pity that these misconceptions exist, and thats why I am so intrigued by other religions, like last night I read a lot of articles about Wicca, and it is really very interesting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberdeth Posted August 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 Well i for one hope that it's the latter. I/we are here to have grown-up adult discussions and I/we are willing and able to provide any information that is needed. It is in people's nature to be curious. If we weren't we would still be walking and not driving, riding or flying. We would not live all across the world and have different points of view. If you blindly follow what is said to you to be true without questioning, it would be like running into a field of land mines when someone told you there aren't any!!! I too was a christian when I was naive and small, but I grew up, began to think for myself and questioned everything. I looked at all the evidence, or lack thereof, and came to a conclusion. This conclusion led to me becoming a firm believer in my non-belief.I really hope more people would contribute. I know there aren't a lot of us out here, but I would really like this thread to become a platform. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omzig Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 Dude, why do you feel that you need a platform?Don't worry about feeling in the minority - it's a temporary issue. Nowadays, religion is primarily a New World phenomenon. I'm sure you've read Dawkins, who explains that it is the lack of extended family that forces many emigrants to turn to alternative social outlets, such as churches. Having grown up in Europe, and having never met a religious schoolmate, I initially found South Africans to be rather quaint with their large-ish reliance on religion. Now I understand and support this. There are lots of people who need a religion, because it provides a quick explanation of some basic questions. For example, do you really feel like explaining to a non-scientific person that he/she exists because of a singularity called the Big Bang, which in turn created a planet with conditions conducive to the amino-acid soup and creating of cellular life forms, which in turn evolve by means of binary fission or mitosos to become more elaborate, and by a large process of trial and error known as "natural selection" become increasingly more complex, get out of the oceans and become, by means of processes such as more mutation and anagenesis, something that resembles ourselves. Can you imagine how long it would take? A few years perhaps, if you had to explain everything properly! You see, it's much easier to say "God created you this way", and voila, instant gratification. We are programmed to like instant gratification, BTW, because it saves us energy. I belive in belief a lot - it's very useful for many people. Seneca said that the common people regard religion as true, the wise as a folly, and the rulers as useful.So, having a certain amount of non-scientific and religious population is a necessity. There is nothing wrong with that, you can't expect everyone to have the relevant education and understanding. I'm sure you have many religious friends and the relationship is fine. Of course, a small but loud amount of the religious population will be fundamentalist and militant. The best thing to do is to avoid them.Anyway, once you get to Oz, you'll be glad to see that the local trend is moving in the right direction: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Australi...ithoutTable.jpg The graph is misleading though - many people will write down a religion for the sake of tradition. I'm yet to meet a religious Australian amongst my circle of colleagues, and the same applies to my partner. There is no need for an atheist platform here, really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gizmo Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 *Grabs popcorn and gets comfy* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wax Wolff Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 Proudly Pagan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberdeth Posted August 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 LOL well said Omzig, yeah I guess platform was the wrong word to put down. I know exactly what you mean when you say that it takes a lot of time and effort to try and explain rationality over blindly believing in myths and figments of ones imagination. I've actually given up to argue with my friends about it. But the problem is, they always start the debate, then I just shake my head. LOL. I have seen that graph and I also saw a graph when cities with the majority of the people being atheist, the quality of life is actually much better. LOL. But on the whole I agree with your viewpoints.Welcome to all my alternative view friends. Welcome and all your posts are welcomed and appreciated, ye shalt not be shunt here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toitjie Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 omzig and gizmo, without fail you 2 always make me smile! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joefromsa Posted August 4, 2009 Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 omzig and gizmo, without fail you 2 always make me smile!They make you smile because 'They are the Usual Suspects'.. this thread is going to be an interesting read... looking forward to the 'other' forum 'suspects' contributions.... Cyberdeth.. good post... Question... Was Seneca an Atheist or a religious person... ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberdeth Posted August 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2009 My pleasure Joe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndreaL Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 I'm starting this thread coz I feel that people with non-mainstream religious / non-religious views are being censored. Here you can air your views without being persecuted. Sing with me :If you are an Atheist and you know it, clap your hands.If you are a Spiritualist and you know it, clap your hands.If you are a non-religious/non-mainstream religioust and you know it, and you really wanna show it, c'mon everybody, clap your hands.Thanks.I couldn't agree more- think back several weeks when we had much the same topic going- the great thing was a sharing of idea's, advice on further reading, and for myself- an understanding that there are other people like me, slightly left of centre- not willing to just accept mainstream thought on many subjects.......... not just religion.Of course I spouted views of tolerance, acceptance etc, but again we were censored and the topic was closed amid claims of blasphemy etc.I have been staying away from the forum, mainly because of that, I'm still peeved about it.I honestly thought that any person about to embark on the great unknown journey that is migration, should at least be equipped with a non-biased frame of mind and a willingness to- if not accept other peoples beliefs- at least allow them the right to express them............ those are the kind of people I expect(ed) to find here on the forum.......... questioning minds, people looking at broadening their horizons.So anyway, in my absence, I have been reading, and Toitjie, you are right, the history of Wicca is fascinating- and think, that is just the start, there is so much more to learn.Of course any thread which has the word " atheist" in the title is sure to illicit some strong responses-particularly from the more zealous- so I would suggest that everyone just ignore that type of post and continue to air and share different philosophies about life in general.For my part, I am not sure where I fit in- I am not an atheist as that would suggest strong opposition to theism......... perhaps a non-theist?, but that would suggest I have no belief system and oddly we all follow some sort of belief of code of practice or behaviour.If we get a chance I would love to hear other peoples thoughts, and I non-reservedly include everyone in that invitation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toitjie Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 So anyway, in my absence, I have been reading, and Toitjie, you are right, the history of Wicca is fascinating- and think, that is just the start, there is so much more to learn.If we get a chance I would love to hear other peoples thoughts, and I non-reservedly include everyone in that invitation.Andrea, someone elso on the forum gave me a website called http://www.religioustolerance.org/ which is good reading material, on all sorts of religions, and there are many!!In my search for answers, i also came across the term Deism, which is between theism and atheism. A Deist believes that there is a creator of some sort who created the universe, but then stepped back and let nature takes it coures. In this kind of belief, there is no God who interferes in lives, or answers prayers or stuff like that. We are on our own. Interesting ideaAnyway, I have a question, maybe Omzig can help, seeing she is like a walking talking encyclopedia (eish...spelling). On the flight back from Sydney I watched a documentary on the Genius of Darwin, presented by Richard Dawkins. I do think evolution took place, but what I dont get, is that he says e.g. we and chimps have a common ancestor. this "female" was neither human nor chimp, but had "2 children" of which 1 descended into the human species and the other into the chimp species. But what about her? If she had other children, where is she and her descendants? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joefromsa Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 I posted a question earlier and it was by no means a rhetorical question... 'Was Seneca an Atheist or a religious person... ?'I would like to make a comment on Darwin's Theory of Evolution.... the basic premise is that Man comes from Ape.. (I know a few that do..) the Islamic Scripture which was revealed some 1450 years ago refutes Darwin's theory... Darwin didn't even exist back than... The Islamic theory is 'Man was turned into Ape because of the sins they committed on this planet'... and not the other way around... this is actual scripture... if you consider that no scientist at the time ever thought of such a theory and the statement was specific that Man changed to Ape... I find this fascinating and mentioned is made, like in the Bible, that many a community was destroyed because of mans sins...Any comments would be welcome... Oh I made this post here... because it's the section with the most fun, with Druids, Atheists, Lawyers... sorry exclude lawyers.. new one Deism... and the ever popular Pagans... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toitjie Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Joe, I have to disagree, I am by no means an expert, but the documentary I watched was about Darwin, presented by his greatest fan, Richard Dawkins, and there he pertinently said that we are not "from" apes, but are its cousins, since we have a common ancestor who was neither ape nor human...as for Seneca...there are some contradicting things about him...I would say he was not religious?? maybe someone else knows him better? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omzig Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Joe,I don't think there is much clarity on Seneca's beliefs. As he was living around 0AD, he may have worshipped the many cool Gods of the Roman/Greek Pantheon (like Bacchus/Dionysus ). However, he was a great philosopher and man of incredible moral fibre who took his own life when his Emperor (Nero) commanded him to do so on trumped-up charges.Oh, I see Toitjie already explained that man doesn't come from ape - this is a logical fallacy of the "Straw Man" type - the position of evolution is misrepresented in order to attack it more easily.Toitjie,there are two main evolutionary processes which are based on mutation: anagenesis and apeciation. It's possible (but not very probable) that some offspring of a single mother is different enough to have branched into another species (speciation - usually takes quite a few generations), but more likely it's moved towards anagenesis. I suspect that Dawkins over-simplified the story a bit in order to make it more accessible.Andrea,Atheism is not Anti-theism. The "a" prefix simply means "lack of" Cyberdeth,who's the one with alternative views? Us? Not too long ago the "alternative view" was that the Earth is round. People got burned at the stake for this view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberdeth Posted August 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Good thing we won't get burned by the stake anymore huh ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndreaL Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 Andrea,Atheism is not Anti-theism. The "a" prefix simply means "lack of"Quite right Omzig, but then it is easy to confuse the two, probably most of the Atheists I have met have been Anti-theists too............perhaps they were pushed in that direction because of the misconceptions people have of Atheists Atheism and anti-theism so often occur together at the same time and in the same person that it's understandable if many people fail to realize that they aren't the same. Making note of the difference is important, however, because not every atheist is anti-theistic and even those who are, aren't anti-theistic all the time. Atheism is simply the absence of belief in gods; anti-theism is a conscious and deliberate opposition to theistic belief. Many atheists are also anti-theists, but not all. Atheists Aren't Necessarily Anti-Theistic... Atheism basics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndreaL Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 Andrea, someone elso on the forum gave me a website called http://www.religioustolerance.org/ which is good reading material, on all sorts of religions, and there are many!!In my search for answers, i also came across the term Deism, which is between theism and atheism. A Deist believes that there is a creator of some sort who created the universe, but then stepped back and let nature takes it coures. In this kind of belief, there is no God who interferes in lives, or answers prayers or stuff like that. We are on our own. Interesting ideaThanks ToitjieI would like to return the favour and have just stumbled across Pantheism, which seems to be ticking a lot of boxes for mePantheism " As sexed up Atheism"I especially like what Lucretius and Einstein have to say.I'm not certain if the prefix " pan" means "all or every" or a purposeful descriptive word play on the God Pan Pan is a god of creativity, music, poetry, sensuality and sexuality, or panic and nightmares, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndreaL Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 Good thing we won't get burned by the stake anymore huh ;-)No............ but if you come for a braai at my house you could get " burnt steak" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toitjie Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 Pantheism " As sexed up Atheism"I must say, brilliant article. I would love to hear others' view on this. It makes a lot of sense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberdeth Posted August 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 I like my steak medium rare thanks. It's should have some kick in it, but should be dead enough not to moo. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberdeth Posted August 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 Interesting read this Pantheism. Don't have a lot of time now to read all of it, will do so later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michele R Posted August 7, 2009 Report Share Posted August 7, 2009 Very interesting article, thanks for posting the link Andrea!Think I know a few people who consider themselves atheist but are actually pantheist. Very interesting, it makes a lot of sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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