Prophecies about South Africa

[celeste]

God does love all the orphans and babies that die of cancer. It was man not God that messed up the world because of his choice to reject God's rule and follow his own sinful way. How do you explain the selfishness and pride and lust inherent in humankind? It is sin, original sin. God did not design us as robots but originally as perfect human beings with a free will to choose to either follow Him and His righteous ways or our ways. Sadly, we are suffering the consequences of the latter choice. There is more than enough food in the world to go around, more than enough wealth, but it is unequally distributed so that the wealthy few live off the fat of the land while the majority of poor people suffer. People throw food away to keep prices artificially high rather than distribute to the poor. Yes, there is some distribubtion to the poor but there could be more. Some live in ridiculous luxury while most suffer poverty and hunger. This is a result of man's failure to tend the earth as His creator originally planned. Man is on a path running helter skelter to destruction as he seeks to live only for himself. This is why Jesus said if any man wants to be my disciple he must DENY HIMSELF DAILY take up his cross and follow me. This is an abondoning of all self reliance and a child-like trust in Christ for salvation and the strength to live His way.

On the very common argument or should I say accusation that God is responsible for all the suffering, no-one suffered more than His only begotten Son Jesus when He chose to die for us all on the cross. "His visage was marred more than any man". He suffered more than any of us in order to rescue us from the nightmare we had entered into which was separation from God and all that is good and true.

Yes, God lets His sun shine on the just and the unjust in this life because He is good he has not removed the beauty of His creation from our sight and enjoyment.

We all like sheep turned to our own way when sin entered our hearts at the fall of Adam. But even still He loved us.

Mankind is suffering under the curse of sin but "He who knew no sin became sin for us that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him". The scripture says "cursed is he who hangeth on a tree" - Jesus was the only innocent man (who was also fully God) who ever lived yet He suffered more than any of us physically and in spiritual anguish when He died on the cross for our sins. So, God Himself knows the pain and suffering we endure as humans. Suffering also sometimes turns us to God who we otherwise tend to ignore in life due to our inherently rebellious human nature. No-one teaches a child how to do wrong...it just comes naturally as does sin to man which is the main cause of suffering in the world today. Look at the concept of global warming and its effects and it becomes clear where man's self reliance and destructive behaviour leads.

I personally have a friend who is enduring a terrible illness (she really is the type of person you'd say does not deserve it) yet the Lord has allowed it and will turn it around for the good. When my husband was almost killed in a motorbike accident it was a terrible time of suffering but it was turned to good by way of a new appreciation for one another and for the life God has given us. It is a terrible thing when children die of illness, tragic and heartbreaking. It is the result of the fallen state of the human race, not because of the particular person's sins but just because the world has been infected by the deadly virus of sin which permeates our thoughts, hearts, souls and has this sickening effect on our bodies. My friend I mentioned earlier is a lovely Christian girl with a wonderful relationship with God yet we do not blame Him for the circumstances because we know that this life is fleeting, our bodies are part of the fallen creation and we struggle with sin within and that a better one awaits us with new bodies, no sin, no suffering 'and he will wipe away all our tears'.

"For God so loved the world he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

Good night!

[Alida]

'the start of the universe' - The word UNIVERSE, means: ONE SENTENCE. How does that correspond with the evolutionist Big Bang ? Christians know God spoke and it was created.

primordial soup - so man's great great great great granddad was a rock, wich was washed into a soup, became an ape and became ..... man .... ? How on earth ... ????

must have existed: stil guessing, it seems

Your last few posts are just an example of the complete disrespect that you display to atheists all the time - wow, girl, someone cares and you call it disrespect ? Have anyone trampled your ego ? Is not agreeing with you the criteria for being disrespectful ? Then you are very much disrespectful towards many others on this thread as well. Eish, you WANT to be rejected and you WANT to create a scenario where you are the martyr. If the true gospel of salvation makes you angry, it must be for a reason. If it's only a fake story, why does it aggravate your hormones so terribly ?

educate yourself on psychiatry - I am - tripple certified

"Also Alida please clarify for me: Is the bible completely true, non questionable and the word of god or is it NOT? You either buy all of the bull or not. When i quote something all of a sudden it is not relevant because it is from the old testament. Do you just pick and choose? So is Genesis crap? Ten commandments? These come from the old testament, dont they? So are you saying that parts of the bible (such as the stoning of adulterers bit) is wrong? Are you sure god knows about this? Who decides what part of the bible are okay and which are not PC?"

OK, you asked, I'll answer:

Yes, the Bible is completely true. That's why I urged you to read the whole book. If you read any book, you won't get the whole picture if you do not read it cover to cover. Same for the Bible. God said the wages of sin is death. Someone or something had to die to pay for sin / trespassing (God's law). When man under the Old Testament sinned, there was two options: he dies himself, or he could offer a prescribed offer to pay for his sin. All these prescribed offers was prophetically inclined towards the last and final offer for sin God planned for man. If one should persist in trespassing, despising the offers, he had to die to pay for his sins.

The word Testament means that there is a will and it comes into effect when the person dies. Under the Old Testament, man had to offer time and again animals, or had to die for his sin. But God planned and brought into effect the New Testament, or a new, better will. OK, I'll quickly interrupt myself. When a covenant was/ is made, the one violating the covenant, had/has to pay in some way, stipulated by the terms of the covenant. In God's covenant with man, it was the same. Man trespassed, had to pay. God never trespassed, but He saw that man just could not keep the stipulations of the covenant. Remember, when one of the two parties in a covenant dies, the covenant is annulled. God in His mercy never completely wiped out man (although it was close once, during the deluge when He saved only eight). He promised a new covenant, where death would not be the penalty for sin anymore, on condition that you love and serve Him and your neighbour with all your heart and strength. So God decided to visit man in human form, calling this human, His Son, Jesus. Jesus died as a human on behalf of man and because He is God in Spirit but man in body, God reckoned it as the perfect annullation of the Old Testament. Since then, no death was needed to pay for sin. Jesus made the final offer. He, at His death, made the New Testament, or New Will, to come into effect. Man would no more offer. From then on, man needed to come, after falling in sin, in his own free will, back to God and ask forgiveness for his trespasses, based upon the blood offer of Jesus Christ (Christ = Redeemer). That's why it is a better covenant.

Yet, that does not mean you can sin and return, sin and return, intentionally. You are held accountable for your trespasses, but, when you return to God through Jesus Christ, you in fact acknowledge Jesus as God and God as the Highest Power.

When you accept Jesus' offer on the cross to be for you, too, God sends His own Holy Spirit to reside in you, guiding, teaching, keeping you and showing you the way. A Christian therefore lives a life of continuously learning to submit to and continuously learning to live more and more in the wonderful power of God's Spirit.

Man's own willfull sin forced God to instill measures to impress upon man what is good for him. There had to be boundaries, yet man always had the freedom to choose. We all have that freedom, you too. Fact is, our choices have consequences. You can choose life, but you can also choose death. Up to you.

Finally to all the people who think that god loves me - Why doesn't he love all the children who have cancer or all the babies who die of AIDS every year? What about all the victims of rape and violence? - God made man to have a free will (even if you choose to disrespect Him and His Word), otherwise man could accuse him of making men slaves without any choice. People choose to live wrong, and wrong choices have bad consequences. It's the law of cause and effect. If you jump in front of a truck, you'll get hit. If you eat badly or live a stressfull life, you'll contract illness such as heart disease or cancer. Law of nature. Parents who live irresponsibly, often have to deal with babies with some kind of terrible disease. In God's word He gave lots of information on how to live a healthy, happy life. It's man's choice to follow the guidelines or to deviate. Just be prepared to bare the consequences.

Nope, Genesis is truth. See what Wikipedia says: -genesis, from Greek "γεννισις", origin, creation, generation, is a suffix that denotes creation. Related to genos, meaning "race, birth, descent" and genus which shows a relation from the same origin.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/-genesis

The ten commandments is the basic summary of God's instructions of living a healthy life. All the laws and ordinances was given to man's benefit, wether it be relational, health, practical. It stays true.

The only laws that stopped, was those regarding the blood offers, for they prophesied towards Jesus' offer and He stopped it by giving the one and final offer, His own life. None of the other 'instructions on good and healthy living' was ever annulled.

So let the crap begin to spout: If you wont argue with me on a level of rationality, answer this question for me: If god is all powerful, why does he allow people to suffer? Either he cant do anything about it or he can and he doesn't care? Your belief in this protective father figure just doesn't work - even if we leave science out of it. Again, God created man to have a free will, so that we could never accuse Him of forcing us to love and serve Him. He gave us enough reason to love Him, though. Let's say it like this: A child is in his parents' house part of a system with certain 'do's and don'ts. If he violates the status quo, he gets the consequences. Same with man. God said what is good for us, we are free to follow or not. If we do, we gain the positive consequences, like health, happy relationships, etc. If we don't, we reap consequences like illness, hatred, hardship and heartbreak. So no, He's not a bully and He does care - that's why He told us EXACTLY what is good for us !! What other god did that ? If you choose to disobey, He will not keep you from the consequences, for He is merciful enough to not straight away take your life, but allow you to experience the natural consequences of your choices, in order to tell you it's better for you to do the right thing. That's mercy, not indifference.

So why does he test you ? - He seldom plainly 'test' people - it happened once or twice in the Bible times, but that was for a specific and isolated occation and purpose. God is big enough that no man can threaten Him, so he does not need to 'test' anyone. If you mean 'test' in the sense of man suffering, I refer to my answer above.

That is the essence of emotional maturity - being able to face the truth and make peace with it. - I do not need to 'make peace' with the truth. The truth IS peace and God is truth. It is like a little child in his daddy's house. Daddy 'know it all, can do it all'. He provides, He protects. I submit out of my own free will, for there is no higher, mightier, gentler, more fearsome and more holy power than He. He is above all, why should I try and be my own god ? I do not loose anything of myself in the process. He made me as I am and I am complete. No need to 'prove' my being. If I can use the metaphor: He is the Potter, I'm the clay. If I should tell Him He didn't make me, I'm off to do my own thing, I'll look after myself, thank you ! What am I worth ? I'll be a vessel out and about in town looking for - what ? A purpose ? The potter made the vessel to be a vessel carrying something inside. If the vessel refuses, it's rather useless.

Sleep tight !

[JimmyC]

Well said Carry...

[Maplasies]

No need to 'prove' my being. If I can use the metaphor: He is the Potter, I'm the clay. If I should tell Him He didn't make me, I'm off to do my own thing, I'll look after myself, thank you ! What am I worth ? I'll be a vessel out and about in town looking for - what ? A purpose ? The potter made the vessel to be a vessel carrying something inside. If the vessel refuses, it's rather useless.

thx Alida for taking the time for this message, I copied your answers as we get these arguments /questions every day, your last few sentences are so important!

God Bless xx

Edited September 30, 2008 by Agie

[OZSAFFER]

OK! This will be my final attempt to convince the disbelievers of "Divine Intervention"

As mentioned, I can not justify my opion based on scientific or theoligical evidence. So, let us for a moment forget about science, theology, neurology, psychology etc etc etc as it will be irrelevant for the purpose of this argument.

Let's just apply the concept of "Logic /Common Sense"

1. 
   

A very long time ago - how long is irrelevant! - there was space (infinite space), which always had to be there - no beginning & no end (there couldn't have been, it would just not be rational) - void of any particles or matter or substance - just endless Space! This space however was not nothing - it was an Entity of some sort - it existed - the space itself existed. Now, this space or entity as referred to in it's infinte capacity insofar as time and size is concerned and "Almighty" in essence - a mind boggling thought! Nevertheless, this space or entity had to either exist as Divinity itself or be the result of Divine intervention - it could not have been the consequence of some form of scientific or biological occurrence as it was void of anything! Even it was the consequence of some form of scientific or biological occurrence, the question should then be asked - what Entity existed prior to the said event? You see, this never ending scenario always brings one back to the existence and /or presence of an extremely Powerfull /Allmighty /Divine entity!

• 
  

The 1st Particle -again, what it was exactly is irrelevant! - How did it get there? Who or what put it there? or What occurence /action /event caused it to be there? or Was it too, always there?

Regardless of the answers to the questions above, one fact always remain the same - a very powerful force (not powerful in a scientific sense, like the sun) MUST have existed in order to ensure that it was placed there or to ensure that it was the consequence of an event /occurrence /action or if it was always there, it stands to reason that the very 1st particle itself too was part of the original Entity in it's Divine /Almighty existence.

• 
  

Creation or Evolution /Big Bang - Again, regardless of how it came about, because it is irrelevant in terms of the manifestation of the existince of a Higher Divine /Allmighty being or entity. Whether it was spontaneous evolution as referred to or the Big Bang etc, does not really matter. The fact still remains the same! For any of this to happen, something had to "exist". An explosion can only occur if there is something to explode - even if it is a very small particle. Spontaneous action can also only occur to something that exist! Hence, the focus and /or key aspect here is "Existence" - the existence and /or presence of something - something brought about as a result and /or consequence and /or influence by something else OR something that simply always existed in it's own Infinte/ Divine Capacity.

• 
  

In conclusion: Nobody will ever be able to fully understand the entire concept. One thing is Certain though! There is, was and always will be an Allmighty /Divine / Infinite Entity's presence, referred to in most religions as God. IT IS THE ONLY LOGICAL EXPLANATION!

Edited October 1, 2008 by Nick Vos

[Gerrie-Brissie]

Alison...

When I, some time ago, saw a post from a forumite looking for information on the locale and 'availability' of pagan churches in Perth... I stayed away. I knew that there was absolutely nothing in that post that would be of interest to me. I also realised that the contents of that thread would probably anger me...

so...

I stayed away...

I would have thought the topic of this thread would have done the same for you... as you confess to being an atheist, I am puzzled what you are doing participating in this thread... unless it is to stir up the pot and get people upset...

I could not agree more!

Sometimes people are so intent on stirring into what others believe that they just could not help to jump in and get a bit of a back hand slap in their faces.

Through all of my dealings with especially atheists, I came to the conclusion that they want to believe in their "No-God" religion and will not even listen to people with other believes - they will always want you to listen to them, but the courtesy is never returned.

If someone tells me he/she is an atheist, I immediately stop trying to reason with them for they are claiming to be reasonable but tend to be self righteous and will even become abusive if they do not get their way.

For your own peace of mind, do not reason with atheists.

Cheers.

[AllisonW]

Well, well, well, At least i got some high handed responses from the bible club! I knew i would. All my posts on science and everyone is quietly scratching their heads - Eish! But, once i start quoting your mythology, everyone has a lot to say. May i repeat to Carrie and others what i have said before - everyone can be held accountable. I was previously on this thread and said nothing spectacular. When i popped in again and saw that this had become a atheist bashing party i spoke up. Now that you were caught blushing your response is that i should not have been here in the first place. Please note that i dont comment on all the other christians threads - such as your forum praying initiative. the bottom line is you dont like to be questioned. None of your biblicial ranting influence my position at all. I am not some teenager in turmoil. I have actively engaged in this issue for a long time and are quite secure in my views.

Despite saying a whole lot of propaganda, you have essentially still not logically answered my questions:

1. Alida all your ranting did not clear one thing up for me. If the new testament replaces the old testament after jesus death, how do you know what parts it replaces? Is it defunct or is it not? If it throws out some parts, how do you know that the genesis aspect is correct? Are you questioning the WORD of GOD? No harp for you!

2. Chrisitians say that god is all loving, all knowing and all powerful. Am i correct that that is your understanding. SO, if he is all knowing why does he have to allow suffering to continue Take this quote from the Bible (SPeaking your language am I?) . In Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:

"Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! "

The impossibility of God is visible here as well. Based on Jesus' statement, let's assume that you are a child and you are starving in Ethiopia. You pray for food. What would you expect to happen based on Jesus' statement? If God exists as an all-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful parent -- a "father in heaven" -- you would expect God to deliver food to you. In fact, the child should not have to pray. Normal parents provide food to their children without their children having to beg for it. Yet, strangely, on planet Earth today we find tens of millions of people dying of starvation every year.

Another way to approach the impossibility of God is to think about the concept of omniscience. If God is omniscient, then it means that he knows every single thing that happens in the universe, both now and infinitely into the future. Do you have free will in such a universe? Clearly not. God knows everything that will happen to you. Therefore, the instant you were created, God knows whether you are going to heaven or hell. To create someone knowing that that person will be damned to hell for eternity is the epitome of evil.

Here is another way to understand the impossibility of God. If you look at the definition of God, you can see that he is defined as the "originator and ruler of the universe". Why does the universe need an originator -- a creator? Because, according to religious logic, the universe cannot exist unless it has a creator. A believer will say, "nothing can exist unless it is created." However, that satement immediately constructs a contradiction, because we must then wonder who created God. For a believer the answer to that is simple -- "God is the one thing that does not need a creator. God is timeless and has always existed." How can it be that the everything MUST have a creator, while God must NOT? The contradiction in the definition of God is palpable.

As soon as your think about the concept of a perfect, omnipotent, omniscient being, you realize the impossibility of the concept.

And that Gerrie Brissie is called Reason (or logic), as per the Wiki definition of "reason is typically treated as an objective or neutral understanding of reality as opposed to emotionalism, which is thinking driven by desire, passion, or prejudice"

For me this is a healthy debate - for others they are attacked and frothing. One more thing I was told that when the push comes to the shove i will see the light (I.E on my death bed). I challenge you with the same claim: "When your children and loved ones are ill who do you turn to: Science or religion - the priest or the doctor? I think we all know the answer to that! LOL

Once again i enjoy this discussion and believe that we can only grow through dialogue.

Enjoy your day!

Allison

[bluebonnet]

'the start of the universe' - The word UNIVERSE, means: ONE SENTENCE. How does that correspond with the evolutionist Big Bang ? Christians know God spoke and it was created.

primordial soup - so man's great great great great granddad was a rock, wich was washed into a soup, became an ape and became ..... man .... ? How on earth ... ????

must have existed: stil guessing, it seems

Your last few posts are just an example of the complete disrespect that you display to atheists all the time - wow, girl, someone cares and you call it disrespect ? Have anyone trampled your ego ? Is not agreeing with you the criteria for being disrespectful ? Then you are very much disrespectful towards many others on this thread as well. Eish, you WANT to be rejected and you WANT to create a scenario where you are the martyr. If the true gospel of salvation makes you angry, it must be for a reason. If it's only a fake story, why does it aggravate your hormones so terribly ?

educate yourself on psychiatry - I am - tripple certified

"Also Alida please clarify for me: Is the bible completely true, non questionable and the word of god or is it NOT? You either buy all of the bull or not. When i quote something all of a sudden it is not relevant because it is from the old testament. Do you just pick and choose? So is Genesis crap? Ten commandments? These come from the old testament, dont they? So are you saying that parts of the bible (such as the stoning of adulterers bit) is wrong? Are you sure god knows about this? Who decides what part of the bible are okay and which are not PC?"

OK, you asked, I'll answer:

Yes, the Bible is completely true. That's why I urged you to read the whole book. If you read any book, you won't get the whole picture if you do not read it cover to cover. Same for the Bible. God said the wages of sin is death. Someone or something had to die to pay for sin / trespassing (God's law). When man under the Old Testament sinned, there was two options: he dies himself, or he could offer a prescribed offer to pay for his sin. All these prescribed offers was prophetically inclined towards the last and final offer for sin God planned for man. If one should persist in trespassing, despising the offers, he had to die to pay for his sins.

The word Testament means that there is a will and it comes into effect when the person dies. Under the Old Testament, man had to offer time and again animals, or had to die for his sin. But God planned and brought into effect the New Testament, or a new, better will. OK, I'll quickly interrupt myself. When a covenant was/ is made, the one violating the covenant, had/has to pay in some way, stipulated by the terms of the covenant. In God's covenant with man, it was the same. Man trespassed, had to pay. God never trespassed, but He saw that man just could not keep the stipulations of the covenant. Remember, when one of the two parties in a covenant dies, the covenant is annulled. God in His mercy never completely wiped out man (although it was close once, during the deluge when He saved only eight). He promised a new covenant, where death would not be the penalty for sin anymore, on condition that you love and serve Him and your neighbour with all your heart and strength. So God decided to visit man in human form, calling this human, His Son, Jesus. Jesus died as a human on behalf of man and because He is God in Spirit but man in body, God reckoned it as the perfect annullation of the Old Testament. Since then, no death was needed to pay for sin. Jesus made the final offer. He, at His death, made the New Testament, or New Will, to come into effect. Man would no more offer. From then on, man needed to come, after falling in sin, in his own free will, back to God and ask forgiveness for his trespasses, based upon the blood offer of Jesus Christ (Christ = Redeemer). That's why it is a better covenant.

Yet, that does not mean you can sin and return, sin and return, intentionally. You are held accountable for your trespasses, but, when you return to God through Jesus Christ, you in fact acknowledge Jesus as God and God as the Highest Power.

When you accept Jesus' offer on the cross to be for you, too, God sends His own Holy Spirit to reside in you, guiding, teaching, keeping you and showing you the way. A Christian therefore lives a life of continuously learning to submit to and continuously learning to live more and more in the wonderful power of God's Spirit.

Man's own willfull sin forced God to instill measures to impress upon man what is good for him. There had to be boundaries, yet man always had the freedom to choose. We all have that freedom, you too. Fact is, our choices have consequences. You can choose life, but you can also choose death. Up to you.

Finally to all the people who think that god loves me - Why doesn't he love all the children who have cancer or all the babies who die of AIDS every year? What about all the victims of rape and violence? - God made man to have a free will (even if you choose to disrespect Him and His Word), otherwise man could accuse him of making men slaves without any choice. People choose to live wrong, and wrong choices have bad consequences. It's the law of cause and effect. If you jump in front of a truck, you'll get hit. If you eat badly or live a stressfull life, you'll contract illness such as heart disease or cancer. Law of nature. Parents who live irresponsibly, often have to deal with babies with some kind of terrible disease. In God's word He gave lots of information on how to live a healthy, happy life. It's man's choice to follow the guidelines or to deviate. Just be prepared to bare the consequences.

Nope, Genesis is truth. See what Wikipedia says: -genesis, from Greek "γεννισις", origin, creation, generation, is a suffix that denotes creation. Related to genos, meaning "race, birth, descent" and genus which shows a relation from the same origin.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/-genesis

The ten commandments is the basic summary of God's instructions of living a healthy life. All the laws and ordinances was given to man's benefit, wether it be relational, health, practical. It stays true.

The only laws that stopped, was those regarding the blood offers, for they prophesied towards Jesus' offer and He stopped it by giving the one and final offer, His own life. None of the other 'instructions on good and healthy living' was ever annulled.

So let the crap begin to spout: If you wont argue with me on a level of rationality, answer this question for me: If god is all powerful, why does he allow people to suffer? Either he cant do anything about it or he can and he doesn't care? Your belief in this protective father figure just doesn't work - even if we leave science out of it. Again, God created man to have a free will, so that we could never accuse Him of forcing us to love and serve Him. He gave us enough reason to love Him, though. Let's say it like this: A child is in his parents' house part of a system with certain 'do's and don'ts. If he violates the status quo, he gets the consequences. Same with man. God said what is good for us, we are free to follow or not. If we do, we gain the positive consequences, like health, happy relationships, etc. If we don't, we reap consequences like illness, hatred, hardship and heartbreak. So no, He's not a bully and He does care - that's why He told us EXACTLY what is good for us !! What other god did that ? If you choose to disobey, He will not keep you from the consequences, for He is merciful enough to not straight away take your life, but allow you to experience the natural consequences of your choices, in order to tell you it's better for you to do the right thing. That's mercy, not indifference.

So why does he test you ? - He seldom plainly 'test' people - it happened once or twice in the Bible times, but that was for a specific and isolated occation and purpose. God is big enough that no man can threaten Him, so he does not need to 'test' anyone. If you mean 'test' in the sense of man suffering, I refer to my answer above.

That is the essence of emotional maturity - being able to face the truth and make peace with it. - I do not need to 'make peace' with the truth. The truth IS peace and God is truth. It is like a little child in his daddy's house. Daddy 'know it all, can do it all'. He provides, He protects. I submit out of my own free will, for there is no higher, mightier, gentler, more fearsome and more holy power than He. He is above all, why should I try and be my own god ? I do not loose anything of myself in the process. He made me as I am and I am complete. No need to 'prove' my being. If I can use the metaphor: He is the Potter, I'm the clay. If I should tell Him He didn't make me, I'm off to do my own thing, I'll look after myself, thank you ! What am I worth ? I'll be a vessel out and about in town looking for - what ? A purpose ? The potter made the vessel to be a vessel carrying something inside. If the vessel refuses, it's rather useless.

Sleep tight !

Now I only have one more question, where on this warming earth do you get the time to write all of the above?? Do you have a job?? Kids?? Just wondering??? O, I forgot, in SA you have maids, no wonder you have all this free time, and energy. On other posts from you I can clearly tell that you do not love your neighbor as yourself, (from the Bible), maybe you should take a good look at yourself first.

[Die Du Plooys]

Ek het gister per toeval op hierdie tread afgekom en wil ook nie te veel sê nie, aangesien ek agter kom mense mekaar bietjie "disrespect" en mekaar aanval.

Ek is nie die grootste Christen wat daar is nie en twyfel redelik tot baie en het my vrae en probeer my antwoorde op my eie manier kry.

Wat ek wel net wil sê gaan oor die feit dat Allison noem dat "God is all loving, all knowing and all powerfull"

Ek glo dit, maar dink dit word uit verband geruk.

Die Here is daar, dit weet ek uit my eie ondervinding en na al my vrae en soektogte kan en wil ek dit nie aan iemand probeer verduidelik nie en dit pla my ook glad nie as iemand nie dieselfde as ek voel nie, inteendeel, my man is op die oomblik besig met sy eie soektog en kon nog nie sy antwoorde vind nie. Ek het na iets gesoek en alles het vir my teen dit gewys, maar daar was iets leeg in my en ek het dit gekry in myself, dit maak die lewe vir my makliker en gee vir my meer sin in die lewe. Ek glo alle godsdienste het hulle plek in die lewe, alle mense het hulle sin. Ook kan mens nie iemand anders se religion (selfs jou ouers sin soos jy grootgemaak is) is net oorneem en alles vat op woorde nie, dit moet jou eie persoonlike verhouding met die Here wees.

Anyway, die Here het ons ons eie wil gegee, dis duidelik in die Bybel en in die lewe. Hy gaan nie net nou inspring en alles "fix" wat vir ons dalk die reg voel of lyk in die wêreld nie. Ons moet die verantwoordelikheid dra van ons actions as 'n mensdom. Voorbeeld, ons as mense het die aarde gemaak wat dit is vandag, ons het aardverwarming veroorsaak en ons begin nou daar onder lei en ons kinders gaan nog meer. Ek dink dit is onverantwoordelik om te verwag die Here moet net nou inspring en alles regmaak en vir almal hulle pyn en seer wegvat? Of dat Hy dalk daar bo sit en besluit wie se gebede om te verhoor en wie sin nie? Wie iemand aan die dood kan afstaan en wie nie?

Ek dink die Here is bietjie GROTER as dit? En die dinge wat hier op aarde gebeur is maar 'n baie klein deeltjie van die groter prentjie.

Ek dink ook sommige Christene kan dinge bietjie uit verband ruk en veral in SA voel dit vir my of daar sekere kerke en mense is wat mens meer Wegdryf van die Here af deur die belaglike goed wat hulle preek, mens mag niks bevraagteken ens nie.

MAAR, om die Here af te maak dat Hy nie bestaan nie, net oor daar pyn en lyding op aarde is, klink ook nie vir my reg nie.

Ek glo almal is geregtig op die manier hoe hulle voel, maar iemand het eendag vir my gesê ek sal eendag net besef ek het nie meer nodig om alles te question nie, maar dat ek net sal weet en ek weet nou en vir my is dit wonderlik, dit maak dat ek 'n lekkerder dag het, dat my kinders se lewe vir my belangriker voel. As oom Angus Saterdag oggend praat oor die tv van hoe die Here vir hom wind gedraai het en reën gebring het, kry ek trane in my oë, want ek weet hy doen dit vir my ook.

"The Secret" is baie dieselfde, glo in jouself word daar weer geskryf. Maar die punt is, glo genoeg, en dit SAL gebeur! Die Here is nie kleinlik om mense te wil straf oor hulle dalk nie die Bybel presies navolg nie, ALMAL op aarde is SY mense! Maar, glo en jy sal kry!

Jammer as my post nie so baie sin maak nie, soos ek sê, ek kan nie regtig myself so baie mooi oor die goed verduidelik nie en hoop nie ek het op iemand se tone getrap nie!

[OZSAFFER]

Well, well, well, At least i got some high handed responses from the bible club! I knew i would. All my posts on science and everyone is quietly scratching their heads - Eish! But, once i start quoting your mythology, everyone has a lot to say. May i repeat to Carrie and others what i have said before - everyone can be held accountable. I was previously on this thread and said nothing spectacular. When i popped in again and saw that this had become a atheist bashing party i spoke up. Now that you were caught blushing your response is that i should not have been here in the first place. Please note that i dont comment on all the other christians threads - such as your forum praying initiative. the bottom line is you dont like to be questioned. None of your biblicial ranting influence my position at all. I am not some teenager in turmoil. I have actively engaged in this issue for a long time and are quite secure in my views.

Despite saying a whole lot of propaganda, you have essentially still not logically answered my questions:

1. Alida all your ranting did not clear one thing up for me. If the new testament replaces the old testament after jesus death, how do you know what parts it replaces? Is it defunct or is it not? If it throws out some parts, how do you know that the genesis aspect is correct? Are you questioning the WORD of GOD? No harp for you!

2. Chrisitians say that god is all loving, all knowing and all powerful. Am i correct that that is your understanding. SO, if he is all knowing why does he have to allow suffering to continue Take this quote from the Bible (SPeaking your language am I?) . In Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:

"Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! "

The impossibility of God is visible here as well. Based on Jesus' statement, let's assume that you are a child and you are starving in Ethiopia. You pray for food. What would you expect to happen based on Jesus' statement? If God exists as an all-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful parent -- a "father in heaven" -- you would expect God to deliver food to you. In fact, the child should not have to pray. Normal parents provide food to their children without their children having to beg for it. Yet, strangely, on planet Earth today we find tens of millions of people dying of starvation every year.

Another way to approach the impossibility of God is to think about the concept of omniscience. If God is omniscient, then it means that he knows every single thing that happens in the universe, both now and infinitely into the future. Do you have free will in such a universe? Clearly not. God knows everything that will happen to you. Therefore, the instant you were created, God knows whether you are going to heaven or hell. To create someone knowing that that person will be damned to hell for eternity is the epitome of evil.

Here is another way to understand the impossibility of God. If you look at the definition of God, you can see that he is defined as the "originator and ruler of the universe". Why does the universe need an originator -- a creator? Because, according to religious logic, the universe cannot exist unless it has a creator. A believer will say, "nothing can exist unless it is created." However, that satement immediately constructs a contradiction, because we must then wonder who created God. For a believer the answer to that is simple -- "God is the one thing that does not need a creator. God is timeless and has always existed." How can it be that the everything MUST have a creator, while God must NOT? The contradiction in the definition of God is palpable.

As soon as your think about the concept of a perfect, omnipotent, omniscient being, you realize the impossibility of the concept.

And that Gerrie Brissie is called Reason (or logic), as per the Wiki definition of "reason is typically treated as an objective or neutral understanding of reality as opposed to emotionalism, which is thinking driven by desire, passion, or prejudice"

For me this is a healthy debate - for others they are attacked and frothing. One more thing I was told that when the push comes to the shove i will see the light (I.E on my death bed). I challenge you with the same claim: "When your children and loved ones are ill who do you turn to: Science or religion - the priest or the doctor? I think we all know the answer to that! LOL

Once again i enjoy this discussion and believe that we can only grow through dialogue.

Enjoy your day!

Allison

Allison!

In all cases, I would take my child to the Doctor and even pray if I thought it was something that will require God's intervention, but in saying that, I always accept that matters will still be in God's hands. It is God's ability to work through others that we ultimately rely on.

No, God does not need a creator! Don't look at God as something materialistic that needed creation - look at God as an ever present Divine entity.

You obviously won't be convinced, regardless of what anyone says.

So, cheers!

[Gweilo]

What I have noticed is that it is always extremely easy for a "scientist" to interpret and prove and explain everything in retrospect. It is easy to bash something written hundreds of years ago with todays knowledge. It takes somone with extreme mental ability to still believe in something regardless of all of the physical evidence available today. You have said it before, science is a hypothesis until proven correct or not.

Maybe you should try and read the bible, and use your fantastic analytical ability to interpret/ the message, knowing what scientific/academic information was available in the days of Christ?

It seems you are defending the existance of nothing?

[Die Du Plooys]

Everlasting suffering in hell?

Man oh man. Yet another example of judgemental Christians preaching to the world that if its not their way its fire and brimstone. The utter arrogance of happy clappy wingnuts who have the audacity to condemn people who dont share the same system of belief is something I refuse to tolerate. How dare you? What a wicked evil thing to say!

Nog iets wat ek opgemerk het in die tread. Volgens wat ek weet is dit glad nie reg van enige iemand, veral nie iemand wat in Jesus en die Here glo om ander te oordeel nie, dit is tog duidelik. Hoe groot Christen is mens REGTIG as jy voel dat jy die reg het om oor ander te oordeel, as selfs Jesus dit nie eers gedoen het nie? Om te kan sê dat ander reguit hel toe gaan as hulle nie dinge in hulle harte voel soos jy nie?

Niemand weet wat iemand anders se pad is wat hy moet loop of besig is om te loop nie, dit wat iemand anders gemaak het wat hy is, hoekom hy dink wat hy dink nie.

[Alida]

Qoute: An explosion can only occur if there is something to explode - even if it is a very small particle. If you take the laws of nature, you'll also find that energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only change form. So that 'energy' that was needed to set off the supposed Big Bang explosion, had to exist prior to the supposed explosion. So, somewhere, a bunch of energy by accident bumped into chemical substances that, in an undefined, non-existent space, met each other, reacted because of the bundle of energy that found them (in a non-existent space), exploded constructively and became something. Wow.

[Alida]

you dont like to be questioned - NO, BY ALL MEANS, KEEP ASKING ! WE'VE GOT SO MUCH WONDERFULL STUFF TO SHARE, IT'S A PRIVELEGE !!

[Alida]

how do you know what parts it replaces? Is it defunct or is it not? READ MY POST AGAIN. All laws regarding blood offers has been stopped at Jesus' death, for He made the final offer.

[Alida]

how do you know that the genesis aspect is correct? Are you questioning the WORD of GOD? No harp for you!

OH, I DID !! COULD NOT FIND ANYTHING BETTER !!

Same question to you. Evolution-believers rely upon other mere human beings' opinions and findings to base your faith upon. Evolution-believers rely upon other beings (peers) who by chance came into existence, by chance became rather intellectual, have several disfunctions because of mutations.

If you do not believe in Divine, purposeful Creation, why do man exist ? What is man's purpose ? Why do we bother to live according to well-thought-out moral laws ? Are we just meaningless beings floating in space for some time, trying to enjoy the time we didn't have any choice in to exist, just to die and then it's all over ?

God said in His Word He created man to be in fellowship with Him. God is Love, He is the Creator and Author of Love. If you live in a huge desert all on your own and you have lots of love to share, your love is of no value, for there is none to give it to, none to share your love with and no pleasure in experiencing the effect of your love you gave to others. God wanted a being He could give His love to. So he made man. In His image. And as God has a free will, he made man with a free will.

Man misused his free will and chose not to love God back. So God gave written instructions to man to tell him how to come back to God. Again man reclined. At long last God decided to create His Son a human body in order to come and die in man's place for their hard-headed sinfulness. This was the ultimate, since then man had no excuses anymore. Anyone declining God's offer to salvation since Jesus' death, has no excuse.

Sorry, I digressed a bit.

[Alida]

SO, if he is all knowing why does he have to allow suffering to continue - HAVE YOU READ MY POST OF YESTERDAY NIGHT ?

[Alida]

The impossibility of God is visible here as well. Based on Jesus' statement, let's assume that you are a child and you are starving in Ethiopia. You pray for food. What would you expect to happen based on Jesus' statement? If God exists as an all-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful parent -- a "father in heaven" -- you would expect God to deliver food to you. In fact, the child should not have to pray. Normal parents provide food to their children without their children having to beg for it. Yet, strangely, on planet Earth today we find tens of millions of people dying of starvation every year.

DOES THE ETHIOPIANS SERVE GOD ? Do you feed other children than your own, exept when they come to you to ask ? Does the Ethiopians ask God for provision ? I'm sure if they'll do, He'll give !

we find tens of millions of people dying of starvation every year. DROUGHT AND STARVATION IS JUST ONE OF THE CONSEQUENCES OF A MISUSED FREE WILL. Read Deut. 28, you'll find it there.

Another way to approach the impossibility of God is to think about the concept of omniscience. If God is omniscient, then it means that he knows every single thing that happens in the universe, both now and infinitely into the future. Do you have free will in such a universe? Clearly not. God knows everything that will happen to you. Therefore, the instant you were created, God knows whether you are going to heaven or hell. To create someone knowing that that person will be damned to hell for eternity is the epitome of evil.

GOD MADE MAN WITH A FREE WILL. HE WANTS HIS CHILDREN TO ABIDE WITH HIM FOREVER, WETHER IT IS ON EARTH OR IN HEAVEN. REMEMBER, ADAM AND EVE WAS CREATED TO HAVE A FREE WILL. THEY CHOSE TO HAVE CHILDREN, GOD GAVE THEM THE ABILITY TO HAVE CHILDREN. SO DOES EVERY HUMAN BEING ON EARTH THE CHOICE TO HAVE CHILDREN. MAN ARE THEREFORE CO-CREATORS WITH GOD. WE HAVE A CHOICE TO CREATE. HIS CHILDREN ARE DESTINED TO LIVE ETERNALLY WITH HIM. HE DID NOT CREATE ANYONE TO GO TO HELL. MAN HAS A FREE WILL TO CHOOSE TO FOLLOW GOD OR TURN AWAY. MAN HIMSELF CHOOSE TO GO TO HELL, NOT GOD. HELL IS THE ULTIMATE CONSEQUENCE OF A LIFE OF REFUSING GOD.

Edited October 1, 2008 by Alida

[Alida]

How can it be that the everything MUST have a creator, while God must NOT? THE VESSEL IS QUESTIONING THE POTTER HERE.

"When your children and loved ones are ill who do you turn to: Science or religion - the priest or the doctor? I think we all know the answer to that! LOL

MY ANSWER MAY PUZZLE YOU. IF YOU READ DEUT. 28, YOU'LL FIND THAT GOD PROMISES HEALTH AMONG OTHER THINGS, IF WE SHOULD LIVE ACCORDING TO HIS WORD. I'M TRYING VERY HARD TO COMPLY WITH THAT INSTRUCTIONS (INCLUDING HEALTHY EATING AND RELATIONAL HABITS AND WORK ETHICS) AND I'M THANKFULL TO SAY THAT NONE OF MY OWN FAMILY HAS BEEN REALLY ILL FOR MANY YEARS, NONE OF MY CHILDREN EVER SAW THE INSIDE OF A DOCTOR'S SURGERY OR A HOSPITAL. WE'RE ALL ALIVE AND WELL AND HAPPY. GOD HAS BEEN FAITHFUL TO GIVE US WHAT HE PROMISED IF WE FOLLOW HIS WORD. IT'S LIKE THE OWNER'S MANUAL OF A CAR. IF YOU TREAT YOUR CAR PROPERLY WITH THE RIGHT OIL, PETROL, WATER, YOU WASH AND POLISH IT, DO NOT TRAMPLE ON THE SEATS OR EAT MESSY FOOD IN IT, YOUR CAR WILL AFTER MANY YEARS, STILL LOOK AND ACT AS IF IT'S SPANKING NEW. EASY AS PIE.

[Alida]

Now I only have one more question, where on this warming earth do you get the time to write all of the above?? Do you have a job?? Kids?? Just wondering??? O, I forgot, in SA you have maids, no wonder you have all this free time, and energy. On other posts from you I can clearly tell that you do not love your neighbor as yourself, (from the Bible), maybe you should take a good look at yourself first.

THERE IS A NOTED TENDENCY AMONG MEN THAT THE MOMENT PEOPLE DOES NOT HAVE ANYTHING MORE TO SAY, THEY BEGIN TO ATTACK PERSONALLY. I'M A MOM OF TWO TODDLERS, DO MY OWN HOMEWORK (EVERY SINGLE THING), NO DOMESTIC. I DO PART TIME GRAPHIC DESIGN, TYPING AND TRANSLATION FROM HOME. WHERE DO I GET TIME FOR THIS ? AT NIGHTS AFTER THE KIDS HAS GONE TO BED.

THANKS FOR THE CONCERN, I'M HAPPILY MANAGING MY LIFE ! OH YES, I'M ALSO STUDYING PART TIME AGAIN...

[Dax]

OK Guys & Gals, the debate became a tad lively, so once again I have to ask participants to handle the debate objectively.

The realities are:

* What is being debated here is a very contentious and emotional issue

* One cannot have a neutral stance on it, really, but we CAN and should be objective and cognisant of each others' dignity.

So, please let's all take a deep breath, and then get into the debate again within the parameters of respect and objectivity.

Cheers,

Dax

[Kapoen]

Wow This has gone downhill fast, I was directed to this thread by someone who started reading this forum on my suggestion a couple of weeks ago, she called me to ask if this is the way forumites treat each other?

How unfortunate!

I have to agree with Carrie and others, stay off the thread if you are not religiously inclined etc. I read through the whole thread and the "bashing" actually began with Preacher, bashing someone's belief in God. And poor Celeste said "people sometimes say...tatoos etc etc" and from there on it was assumed that Christians condemn others and atheists all have long hair and totoos?

This has stopped being a discussion a while ago, and I have to say from what I've read there is a lot of agression coming from the atheists.

Moderators maybe it's time to head this one off to the cooler where guests cannot see it?

Edited October 1, 2008 by Kapoen

[Eva]

Moderators maybe it's time to head this one off to the cooler where guests cannot see it?

I'm with you on that one Kapoen, send it off to the cooler....

Personal attacks are not part of debate and totally uncalled for.

[Dax]

Points taken Kapoen & Eva, we'll keep an eye here and see how things go.

It's up to participants to stick to debating protocols.

Cheers,

Dax

[alanb]

............THERE ARE NO ATHEISTS IN A FOXHOLE...............(period)

Thats really presumptuous wizard. Believe it or not, there are those of us out there that when faced with adversity, can deal with it without a crutch. Besides, if there really was a god who loved us, why would we be in the foxhole in the first place?