Statistics - Department of Immigration in Australia

[Almost Aussie]

There’s a saying that you can prove almost anything with statistics, so I’m not making any conclusions of these stats, that’s up to you.

Official stats from the Department of Immigration in Australia for the 6 months : July – Dec 2007.

Arrivals from SA on PR : 3487 (19 per day)

Temp arrivals from South Africa : 5921 (32 per day) & excluding holiday visas.

Total from SA : 9408 (51 per day)

In this same 6 month period, 276 South Africans left Australia permanently (1.5 per day) but only 142 of these 276, went back to SA. Unfortunately the stats don’t reflect to which countries the remaining 134 people went to.

In summary, it shows that 3% of South Africans will eventually leave Australia with only 1.4% returning to South Africa.

I recall a poll on the forum at www.saaustralia.org/index.php?showtopic=1963&st=0 which sketches pretty much the same picture (from 304 forum votes).

3% was considering going back

2.3% said they’ve made a mistake to come to Aus

17% would consider going back if crime and other issues are addressed

78% indicated no worries down under

[GerhardinOz]

This is pa lot more accurate than the crap you read in the SA media.

[JanCPT]

Interesting

Now if you extrapolate the figures a bit and -

- double them to get the results for 12 months and

- double the number, to accomodate those leaving for other parts of the world

you've got an estimated 36 528 people leaving SA in a year

with a population of 46 000 000 people, that would amount to 0.08% of the population leaving every year!!

and considering that only about 10 - 15% of the SA'n population make a meaningful economic contribution to the country ... and that all of those leaving would fall into this category ....

it, sort of, put's a face to the brain drain

I'm not leaving because of the crime anymore ..... I'm leaving because the country is facing extreme economic collapse!!!

But, not to worry, those that are leaving are replaced by well qualified immigrants from countries such as Cuba, Nigeria, Zimbabwe etc ...

Wow, you had me going for a moment there!!!

Edited July 28, 2008 by JanCPT

[Bob]

I should think the figures for South Africans going to the UK and Ireland would be a bit skewed also.

I'd imagine that most would be European (i.e. U.K. or Irish) passport holders anyhow, whether by birth or descent and that wouldn't show up correctly. . . . . they'd be "returning citizens" or something like that.

I shouldn't think there'd be anywhere near the same number of South Africans with Australian or New Zealand (or even Canadian) passport holders classified the same way (i.e. "returned citizens', etc)

They'd be fair dinkum migrants with temp or permanent visas and not citizens of Australia or New Zealand, as is probably the case for Britain and Ireland.

Edited July 28, 2008 by Bob

[Almost Aussie]

you've got an estimated 36 528 people leaving SA in a year

with a population of 46 000 000 people, that would amount to 0.08% of the population leaving every year!!

and considering that only about 10 - 15% of the SA'n population make a meaningful economic contribution to the country ... and that all of those leaving would fall into this category ....

it, sort of, put's a face to the brain drain

I'm not leaving because of the crime anymore ..... I'm leaving because the country is facing extreme economic collapse!!!

One must keep in mind that these figures includes children that aren’t currently economically active, but they are the ones who needs to take over in 20 - 25 years time. The result will be a missing generation that might start as early as 2015, as predicated. The government can still rescue the boat “if’ they are pro-active but their habits tend to be re-active once all the petrol has run out instead when the tank still has a quarter left.

Edited July 28, 2008 by Almost Aussie

[nans]

There was a snippet on the news this morning that the "Home Coming Revolution" have reported that they have received 17 000 queries from people wanting to return to South Africa. I assume this is from all over the world. In my opinion this figure seems very over inflated......

[Almost Aussie]

There was a snippet on the news this morning that the "Home Coming Revolution" have reported that they have received 17 000 queries from people wanting to return to South Africa. I assume this is from all over the world. In my opinion this figure seems very over inflated......

Take a look at the Home Coming Revolution site, it's the UK all over. Hardly ever mentions Australia. Their stats shows that 70% of people going to the UK return to SA. My sister did as well. Before coming to Aus, I've made contact with them on why they don't mention Aus because it gives a wrong picture. Their reply was that people moving to Aus tend not to go back to SA but according to them, is also a wrong picture. They say people in Aus are not as happy as everyone makes it and most people can't afford to go back or their kids are in high school/university and can't retrun now. That was their answer and not my opinion.

In short, their numbers are based on UK returns.

[vandermerwe's]

The homecoming revolution is the biggest propaganda/brainwashing site I have seen, its totally bias since fnb sponsors it and have the people involved with it, write the articles! I do sympathize with them though, I suppose if you are in the SA boat at the moment you might as well help row...I am just so HAPPY to be in the AUS boat at the moment!

[Julian (Jules)]

One must keep in mind that these figures includes children that aren’t currently economically active, but they are the ones who needs to take over in 20 - 25 years time. The result will be a missing generation that might start as early as 2015, as predicated.

I have seen a similar problem, based on migration, in Jamaica.

I am a country relationship manager to Jamaica for the Canadian bank I work for. Everytime I travel to Jamaica it strikes me how many young and inexperienced people they have working in senior positions there. The reason is because of a massive braindrain from emigration. The 35 - 50 skilled crowd is gone! Jamaica, like SA, has violent crime that drives away the professionals.

So I've seen first hand, in the business context, of what a long-term braindrain looks like. It is not pretty! SA should take a long look at what has happened in Jamaica because in the next 10 to 15 years SA will run into a new "lost generation." That lost generation will be hundreds of thousands of professionals who would have been in the prime of their careers in 2020.

1st-world countries are concerned about the Boomers retiring and causing a void. But at least they have the next generation preparing and building. In SA, that next generation is moving away in droves. There's going to be a HUGE skill gap and a small tax payer base that cannot support the country in the next 15 or so years .

Edited July 29, 2008 by Julian (Jules)

[Preacher]

the stats are never accurate. So many people are entering the country on foreign passports.

I am Australian through ancestry. I have had family come in on British passports instead of South African ones. Out of exactly 10 family members in SA, only two came in on South African passports. 8 of us are classified as something else.

These are people who were born there in some cases, educated in most, all worked and paid taxes for a long period of time. Now my family might be a little more extreme, but I can assure you there are plenty more like mine. SA is losing way more people then they realise this way. Not to mention their adoptive countries gaining Saffers they dont even classify as such.

[LeeInOz]

There was a snippet on the news this morning that the "Home Coming Revolution" have reported that they have received 17 000 queries from people wanting to return to South Africa. I assume this is from all over the world. In my opinion this figure seems very over inflated......

A query is easy to do. I queried going back before we left, I asked some questions ralted to what they could offer in terms of reasons to return. Never got an answer. many of the queries apparently relate to skilled blacks who either never settled in UK properly or were only going to Europe to get a pension fund.

When I went to get my wifes Nursing resistration sent to Australia, I stood in a queue of about 100 black nurses all trying to go to the UK on short term contracts. If you are ending your stay or had enough it would be a logical thing to find an easier way back.

The estimate of 18000 o Australia so double for the whole world is very low. Estimates of migrants from South Africa I saw a while back showed destinations are UK USA Au NZ in that order.

What about the many Germans Portuguese Greeks Dutch and UK citizens who either never became citizens of South Africa or left on alternate passports as Bob suggests

[Taegan]

I agree with Preacher - we are a family of 5, but entered Oz on British passports and there are PLENTLY more of us out there coming in the same way that don't show on the 'SA stats'

[pattie]

the stats are never accurate. So many people are entering the country on foreign passports.

I am Australian through ancestry. I have had family come in on British passports instead of South African ones. Out of exactly 10 family members in SA, only two came in on South African passports. 8 of us are classified as something else.

Hi preacher, I assume you are living in Australia now , just wondering how you got into australia through ancestry, was it through getting UK ancestry.. just wondering how you did it ? from Pattie

[DKH]

Hi,

Nobody will know the EXACT figure, but we can definitely say its more than the quoted stats.

We spoke to the removal company on Monday 1 Sept and he said they move on average 70 families to Oz per month from SA and almost none back. He confirmed that most returning to SA are from Europe.

If one of the companies move 70 families per month it could be safe to say that there are up to 500 families leaving per month, if you include all the other companies and those who move with only suitcases.

Forget those who go elsewhere and just take 500 working people out of the engin room of the economy per month for a prolonged period of time. On a straight line one could say each family provided work for at least 1 person, thus 500 jobs less per month. The government has committment to half the poverty rate by 2014 but cannot create enough work to get ahead... unemployment ---> poverty ...... conclusions, conclusions....

A lot of my friends are staying because they believe the opportunities will increase to make money here. They are right, but at what cost! Look at people who go and work on cellular jobs in Africa, the money is good, but its not pretty. I don't want to sell my family (and soul) for the money!

Cheers,

DKH

[Almost Aussie]

Hi,

Nobody will know the EXACT figure, but we can definitely say its more than the quoted stats.

We spoke to the removal company on Monday 1 Sept and he said they move on average 70 families to Oz per month from SA and almost none back. He confirmed that most returning to SA are from Europe.

If one of the companies move 70 families per month it could be safe to say that there are up to 500 families leaving per month, if you include all the other companies and those who move with only suitcases.

Cheers,

DKH

You're probably correct if you assume it's about 500 families per month. Taking that 51 people leave SA everyday and multiply that with 30 days for a monthly figure, you'll come to approx 1500 people per month. That's an average family consisting of 3 people then which I think is closer to 4 if I look at the Saffers I've met in Perth thus far.

See ya later mates!

[SuzetteJ]

When we did our oral for IELTS in July at BC (JHB), I talked to the short black guy who escorted us to the "office of interview". He works parttime at the BC on weekends, and told me that since January this year, they had between 250 - 300 applicants every two weeks who write IELTS. Fully booked, every two weeks. This doesn't even include all the other "branches" across SA and across the borders..........., needless to say, I had a jaw-dropping-moment........

[SurferMan]

Hi all,

i work in IT, in SAP. I know of dozens of people who have left for Ozz in the last year. If you take 500 families. In SAP, you can safely say the average income is 80-140K a month. multiply that by 12 months. That is R600M in gross earnings saying bye bye SA!

If you take straight tax off that, thats a 1/4 Billion in tax. Any idiot can see that the tax base will collapse in a few years from now. Also, if your tax base drops below the age of 16, it is a known fact that your country is bankrupt.

Scary, well, add that we are a nett loser of skills and not putting the top skills back into the economy, it does not take a very smart person to see what is gong to happen. I am leaving so that I don't have to subsidise a corrupt regime. Yes, Ozz has its own k@k, but at least most things work there. My buddy moved there about 5 months ago. The was amazed at how efficiently things worked there. I can no longer pay taxes etc, and watch as my country slides into oblivion. If im made to pay taxes, then I want to see them at work!

[AllisonW]

Hi all,

i work in IT, in SAP. I know of dozens of people who have left for Ozz in the last year. If you take 500 families. In SAP, you can safely say the average income is 80-140K a month. multiply that by 12 months. That is R600M in gross earnings saying bye bye SA!

If you take straight tax off that, thats a 1/4 Billion in tax. Any idiot can see that the tax base will collapse in a few years from now. Also, if your tax base drops below the age of 16, it is a known fact that your country is bankrupt.

Scary, well, add that we are a nett loser of skills and not putting the top skills back into the economy, it does not take a very smart person to see what is gong to happen. I am leaving so that I don't have to subsidise a corrupt regime. Yes, Ozz has its own k@k, but at least most things work there. My buddy moved there about 5 months ago. The was amazed at how efficiently things worked there. I can no longer pay taxes etc, and watch as my country slides into oblivion. If im made to pay taxes, then I want to see them at work!

Hubby is also in IT and so many of his colleagues from Dimension Data have left. Funny story my cousin in law who also works at DD goes to a seminar with an emigration lawyer - he is seriously undercover as he doesnt want anyone to know. When he gets there four of his colleagues are at the seminar. they quickly agreed upon mutual silence.

[Just Fine]

Thanks for the info...found it most interesting...I just hope we get our visa's approved. It's a real desire of our hearts to get to Australia!

[JacquesV]

Hubby is also in IT and so many of his colleagues from Dimension Data have left. Funny story my cousin in law who also works at DD goes to a seminar with an emigration lawyer - he is seriously undercover as he doesnt want anyone to know. When he gets there four of his colleagues are at the seminar. they quickly agreed upon mutual silence.

LOL....Sounds like a similar scenario here at my work

[Terence.H]

Not sure why this topic died a sudden death as it has so much relevence to all of us!! what you ask? well consider this... we have a country in transition politicaly, no focus, no drive forward, no evidence but promises that they will improve things in the future.

I dont know. I dont even have to read a newspaper or watch the news to see what is happening here anymore, I can see the infrastructure is crumbling, from maintainance of roads to eskom! (By the way have anyone of you noticed that all of a sudden there are no more power issues!!!! reminds me of the Enron manipulation of electric supplies in the U.S, ring any bells with you?????)

Yes I have to agree that the stats cannot be accurate, I know from personal experience that there are many many Europeans living in S.A that have contributed to this economy for many years, and not just only in taxation but have given knowledge to others! I include myself in this, I have contributed for years to this countries economy in terms of taxes and in training others in my trade.

I feel I have a choice now to either stay the course and risk the consequences in this country or make a new start for myself, I choose the latter!!

[MarcK]

There was a snippet on the news this morning that the "Home Coming Revolution" have reported that they have received 17 000 queries from people wanting to return to South Africa. I assume this is from all over the world. In my opinion this figure seems very over inflated......

Probably 17000 queries from illegals who had been deported out of SA.......probably get into trouble for this comment!!!!

[TYTAN]

One also needs to consider the number of people entering Aus on temporary residency visa, with the intention of applying for PR whilst in the country. The stats DO NOT reflect these additional thousands entering Aus, with no intention of going back to SA.

From what I have seen, it would seem that there are more people entering on Temp Visa's than PR Visa's. They then apply for PR once they are here...I'm one of those... (An observation from many South Africans I have spoken with - so it could be very inaccurate really... )

[Eva]

I'm interested in the newer statistics - wonder what the figures are for Jan 2008 to Jun 2008.

Higher than the six months quoted here I would imagine.

Anyone know?