Would love some opinions!

[Nics]

Hi There

Really keen to hear your opinions. Maybe I'm too paranoid but really not comfortable with this.

Just heard that our school is trying to arrange a sports tour to South Africa which my child will fall into.

I can't think of anything worse than sending my primary school child on a plane back to South Africa.

Judging from some of the research I could find - it appears South Africa has double the murder rate to Pakistan - and the Australian team cancelled their trip to Pakistan as it was too dangerous.

Yikes! This is making my stomach turn!!

[matt1]

Are these people nuts?!

The whole idea of going to "Africa" is to experience it but this cannot be done with guaranteed safety. Seems sinister to me- as if the parent wants a subsidised trip 'back home'.

I agree with so many comments. The moment I get off the plane at OR Tambo I raise my guard, no one can deny that South Africa is a dangerous place. It can happen anywhere, anytime. Completely inappropriate for primary school children.

[brisbound]

Natalie strangely enough, the townships are actually very safe for tour groups. I can only speak for the Cape townships here, but we have been going in on a daily basis for the last 9 years without an incident. There is a strong community feeling in the Cape townships that tourists are a good thing, and should be looked after. They bring much needed cash into the townships and create many jobs. You would be amazed at how popular the guest houses are in places like Khayelitsha, with foreigners spending a week or more living there instead of a swanky hotel. There was a very high profile robbery of a tour group (they would choose the group consisting of German travel agents!) about 2 years ago, and there was a strong backlash from township residents against the perpetrators.

Statistically speaking, you have more chance of being robbed in the centre of Adderley street than in a black township in Cape Town. What is also interesting is that the "coloured" townships are much more dangerous than the "black" townships, and we would never consider doing a tour in a place like Manenberg for instance. This is because of the enormous gang culture in the "coloured" townships which does not occur in the "black" areas. I once did a walking tour educational of Manenberg and it was the scariest afternoon of my life. I have never felt threatened in the black townships though.

At the end of the day it all comes down to using a reputable operator who employ locals who know what is happening and which areas are safe. The worst attacks on foreigners have been occurring at places like Table Mountain and the paths above Kirstenbosch gardens. The escalating crime rate will be the death blow to the tourism industry though I fear. Cape Town has such enormous tourism potential which will be lost to this senseless crime. Perception is everything in tourism. I went to a talk by the new head of the tourism marketing body for Cape Town recently. He said that the number one reason why tourists do not visit is because of perceived crime and safety issues. We lose almost 70% of all tourists immediately as a direct result of perceived crime. Then they take into account factors like the distance to travel, cost of touring etc etc. According to the research we end up with only about 2% of our potential market travelling. When you consider the numbers lost and the affect that these visitors COULD have on our employment and GDP figures, it gets very depressing. Such a waste!

In aiming for OZ I have also taken into account that the long term outlook for tourism is not good and that my job prospects will diminish in this sector. A middle aged unemployed white male has no chance in the new SA. I would love to be in the tourism sector in OZ where the only deterrent to tourists is the distances involved. I don't think there is a big demand for tourism experts in OZ though so will have to look to other sectors for employment once there.

Regards

Brisbound

[didl]

Hello!

In general I am not a supporter of school trips, no matter how safe or dangerous the country is.

I know this is wrong as it doesn't provide the kids with opportunity to experience outside the family environement, and I will personally have to deal with it when my kids grow a bit.

There are from my perspective few important questions for you:

1. What does you child want and how will he deal with the possible not going while everyone else is? ( I think you already have an answer and he is fine with it)

2. What is the program and arrangements wrt to the trip? Does it include anything you would find unsuitable or visitng dangerous places. If I was a parent I would like to know all deatils and full program.

3. What is the cost of the trip and can you cover it?

I think issues such as traffic accidents, or other accidents (such as broken leg) on the trip might happen anywhere.

How real is the actual violent crime for a large group of pupils under organised supervision and controled environment : I would say worse than in other countries, but it depends also on the program and arrangements.

Your child is still young and there will be other opportunites for the next school trips, in case you and your child decide that this is not a great choice and skip the trip.

But also I would say once the kids grow up a bit, they will want to know where do they come from and explore their roots... and they will want to do it alone, including the townships and everything else. I am surely going to be scared, but it will be their life and their decision. Sorry, a bit off topic.

Cheers,

didl

[Dax]

It would strongly depend on WHERE you intend to go in RSA.

I'd give Gauteng (especially the Johannesburg area) in general a wide berth, and the same to Durban in general. But then, like with incidents when tourists were attacked in RSA, you can never predict where and when an attack will happen.

As a teacher myself, I can see the educational advantages, but there are just too many variables in this equation...

When I contemplate the nitty gritty aspects of Teacher Duty Of Care principles in Australia, (and both the spirit and letter of it is quite rigorous), my first and foremost gut feeling says "No"

Cheers,

Dax

Edited April 9, 2008 by Dax

[Realist]

There is no way in hell that I would send my son back to SA on a trip like this. I would also be having serious words with the headmaster at this school, as well as the education department, about their liability if something does go wrong.

I know MOST tours probably experience no problems safe, but why take the chance with a child? Go tour NZ/UK/USA/Canada/EU etc.

[Nics]

I agree - not worth taking the chance.

I now have all the facts lined up to speak to the Headmaster when school reopens after the holidays

And realise from all the replies that the majority of you have the same sentiments as me - so very comfortable that I'm being very realistic about this.

Besides - can think of a million better ways to spend the money!

Last tour was to Cairns - was awesome and worth every penny (clearly mom and dad dragged along ))!

Thanks everyone!

[Christina]

Hey people

I would, in general, not let my primary school child go on an overseas school trip to any country alone - only if I could accompany him/her.

On another note:

I am alarmed at what I read on your thoughts on SA. Yes, crime is bad (very bad), it looks like the economy is going down (contrary to what the experts say), but most of the crime stuff is regional. We live in the northern suburbs in Cape Town and my kids go the the good school (not private), and we have never had any violence etc at our schools. The unsafe schools are mostly in the under priviledged areas (mostly where the gangsters operate big time). Please do not believe everything you read in the newspapers over there - just as we do not believe everything that is printed in SA about Oz or NZ or any other place. They generalise in a big way.

Our reason for wanting to leave SA has nothing to do with crime (we have, as yet, not been victims of crime) but for the future of our children.

Regards

[matt1]

Hey people

I would, in general, not let my primary school child go on an overseas school trip to any country alone - only if I could accompany him/her.

On another note:

I am alarmed at what I read on your thoughts on SA. Yes, crime is bad (very bad), it looks like the economy is going down (contrary to what the experts say), but most of the crime stuff is regional. We live in the northern suburbs in Cape Town and my kids go the the good school (not private), and we have never had any violence etc at our schools. The unsafe schools are mostly in the under priviledged areas (mostly where the gangsters operate big time). Please do not believe everything you read in the newspapers over there - just as we do not believe everything that is printed in SA about Oz or NZ or any other place. They generalise in a big way.

Our reason for wanting to leave SA has nothing to do with crime (we have, as yet, not been victims of crime) but for the future of our children.

Regards

I agree with many of your points. SA is a magnificent country to visit and I highly recommend it to many this side, with some caution. It is, however, a dangerous country. Whether you have been a victim or not, life in SA is very much shaped by crime. It is not even worth anyone comparing the crime situation in SA to Aus or NZ because they are by no means comparable. The reported crime in SA is not even a reliable indicator of its extent.

It could be the case that the children come and go without any problems but in the meantime parents would have to sit and wonder if their children are safe. If the police are intimidated by the criminals one has to wonder how a few adults could absolutely guarantee the safety of a group of primary school children.

Sorry, just my 2cents. I still love SA just given the situation I think such a tour would be unwise.

[Sharon]

Hi Debs

I still live in SA and my child goes on sports tours most holidays and occasionally during the term too. He goes to a private school so usually they play against private schools and are hosted by those parents. In the holidays he plays individual sport so goes with the coach and stays in hotels and B&B's In fact, he is in East London right now on hockey tour for 4 days - we live in Durban.

If your child is in Primary school, he will not be playing against Michaelhouse and Hilton - they are high schools.

I suggest you find out which schools they are playing against before you make any decisions. Obviously, I would not be happy if my child would be going into townships to play sport or sightseeing so it depends on the focus of the tour. SA may be unsafe, but it is not that bad! (By the way, I am paranoid about safety as we have been hijacked twice.) There is no violence in the good schools and the discipline is good. The stats look terrible but they are distorted by the incidences in certain areas, as mentioned by Christina in her post.

[Sharon]

Hi Debs

Sorry, meant to say "Hi Nics". Having an over 40 moment!

[Nics]

I've gone a bit quiet - as I am just finding some of the comments about SA not being "that" bad a bit hard to respond to. And especially comments about affluent areas and private schools being fine even after experiencing hijackings.

Anyway - the stats speak for themselves and gated communities and private schools are not immune because the criminals know that is where the money is - not mentioning tourists.

Example - Bishops (if you don't know - private boy's school in Cape Town) had a boy stabbed for his laptop. My friend also had a gun put in her son's face at the school gates for his cellphone. Mom's we know where hijacked while waiting for the kids to come out of school. All incidents are private school related.

[Sharon]

Perhaps perspectives change when you leave the country so I won't comment any further on this post.

[Nics]

Perhaps perspectives change when you leave the country so I won't comment any further on this post.

I think that is true. When you start experiencing on a daily basis what is fairly normal safety (not perfect - just normal) - it quickly magnifies how radical things really are over there.

[Navigator]

I arrived in Aus two months ago. When I read on the forum about people forgetting to lock their vehicles, or house doors, or leaving the garage door open overnight, I just couldn't believe it! Needless to say I thought I wouldn't risk anything like that... Well, how quickly things change, it's happened on more than one occassion now where I forgot to lock the car, and the garage door was open as well. I'm not saying we will never be robbed in Australia, but one just feels so much safer, your eyes really opens up after you arrive here, and then you realise just how much things have changed in South Africa...

[Realist]

I am alarmed at what I read on your thoughts on SA. Yes, crime is bad (very bad), it looks like the economy is going down (contrary to what the experts say), but most of the crime stuff is regional. We live in the northern suburbs in Cape Town and my kids go the the good school (not private), and we have never had any violence etc at our schools. The unsafe schools are mostly in the under priviledged areas (mostly where the gangsters operate big time). Please do not believe everything you read in the newspapers over there - just as we do not believe everything that is printed in SA about Oz or NZ or any other place. They generalise in a big way.

Our reason for wanting to leave SA has nothing to do with crime (we have, as yet, not been victims of crime) but for the future of our children.

Most of the crime stuff is regional? Im very glad your family has been lucky with regards to crime, but seriously, come on? Ill venture to say you just have no idea what a normal society looks or functions like anymore.

[BeeTee]

I've gone a bit quiet - as I am just finding some of the comments about SA not being "that" bad a bit hard to respond to. And especially comments about affluent areas and private schools being fine even after experiencing hijackings.

*shakes head*

Ja nee swaer, ignorance is bliss...

[zorba]

Hi,

I have a friend who volunteers for Childline.

Every 8 minutes a child is "snatched" in SA. Yes, every 8 MINUTES!

Admittedly a large number of these are probably in "dodgy" areas, maybe lower socio-economic groups with (possibly) less attentive parental care. But that's still somebody's child!

Chances are that these kids from Aus will go on the school tour and nothing will happen to them, and you will be called a panic-mechanic or a prophet of doom.

BUT, what if something DOES happen? You will never forgive yourself for not following your instincts.

Our kids are all growing up, they need their freedom and we can't cocoon them forever by being over protective. But they do rely on us to keep them safe, even if our decision proves to be unpopular at the time.

Take care and do let us know what happens.

zorba

[Nics]

OMG. That is just horrific. A human life is a human life - doesn't matter where you come from!

Just thought of something else - but a bit ignorant - so can anyone comment on the issue of TB.

From what I can see there is no vaccinations that are done - and my thoughts are Aussie kids immune systems might not be as geared for TB as a South African kid - having grown up with it...

Just investigating all angles....

[Guest Ninja Turtle]

Hey people...

I have been watching this post with interest, and I have tried to abstain from replying but I feel I need to give my opinion for what its worth.

Be real for a moment, we all grew up in SA, in the most trying circumstances. Violence, necklacing, WAR!, bombs in the Wimpy, etc etc. And yet here we are today, we have survied to enjoy middle age despite the odds, and regardless of the fears of our parents.

I really dont think that kids need to be kept in cotton wool all thier lives. Children are formed by thier experiences in life. Lets try not to pass our fears on to our children.

Listen to the words of the mike & the mechanics song "In the living years", where they sing about children being the hostages of the fears of their parents amongst other things. Children need to be given space and to experience life without the it being tainted or biased by us the parents.

SA is not much different than most of the USA in terms of violence in society, and I bet you would all jump at the chance to send your kids to the USA?

Thats just my opinion, so don't freak out if you don't like it, just food for thought.

Ciao Baby

NT

[Navigator]

I beg to differ slightly from you NT. I have travelled a bit in the USA, and I would send my kids there before I send them back to SA. They have much more of a chance to survive a visit to the US than they have in modern day Dark South Africa.

Part of the reason for leaving was for the safety of my wife and son. These Aussies going to South Africa don't know what to look out for like most South Africans do. Even if you know what to look out for, doesn't make you immune.

By saying we all grew up in South Africa and survived is a bit naive in my view, it was a different country back then, still violent, but in most cases a life was worth something, and people didn't just kill for the fun of it...

On the other hand, we're all entitled to our opinions, so be my guest if you want to send your kids to SA on a school tour.

Edited August 18, 2008 by Navigator

[Bob]

I don't think that a lot of Australian realise that outside Australia there are some countries which are different from them.

They seem to have this illusion that because everyone in Australia drives a Holden car, has free doctors and hospitals and a great social security system to help them thro the tough times in Life, by default, everyone else on Planet Earth must live the same, think the same, feel the same, have the same outlook, etc. etc.

The little kids from Australian schools can go and visit AIDS orphans, run races alongside African township kids and get that nice warm inner glow to bring back and make them feel they are creating a better world.

However, as soon as anything starts going wrong, the parents of those kids will be looking for someone to crucify.

They won't want to accept any responsibility for anything that goes wrong and will try to pass the buck for the consequences of their naive, shallow outlook on Life.

Your job is to let them know what your experiences of life in South Africa have been and let them suffer the consequences.

Experience is a damn good teacher to the Real World.

At least they won't have the excuse that nobody told them so!

[CandiceM]

Hi

I think my concern would be that these are PRIMARY SCHOOL children, who like Bob has said, probally believe that life outside Australia is exactly like life inside Australia. Also considering that it seems only one adult will actually have been in SA before and will be "SA street wise" would be sending the alarm bells ringing in my head.

Apart from the whole SA thing, I have to be honest why would someone even consider doing an overseas school tour for 11 year olds!!!! Yes sure I can understand interstate, but international!! The world has definately changed from when I was at school. Now I might get criticised for this but IMHO I think these kids are way to young to spend what is going to be a large sum of money to send them to a dangerous country (and it is dangerous as so many of us has moved to Oz for this reason) to play sports with a bunch of kids and visit an AIDS orphanage.

If the idea is to show them a different culture at 11 years old I don't think that kids are mature enough to totally empathise whats its like to be an AIDS orphan living in a SA township. Maybe they think shame for about 5 minutes, but as soon the excitement of touring Ushaka, and other attractions will quickly overshadow any images of those orphans, and not because they are bad people but because they are KIDS!!

I have to be honest but I would not be sending my 11 year old without my supervision interstate never mind internationally, there is plenty of time for them to travel when they are older or with me, where I can supervise what he does, where he goes and what he is exposed to.

Candice

[Antoinette]

I would not.

[Andrea]

Perhaps this subject should of been a poll ....

In short, NO, my child would not be going!

[AllisonW]

I would not send my primary school child to any tour without me.

I would send my high school child, if i deemed him emotionally ready on an international sports tour - and that includes a tour to SA. It will be great for him to see his family and he will probably spoilt by all.

This is obviously a private school tour and i suspect that your child will be quite safe. I work within the safety and security arena and am fully aware of crime etc before i get the lecture. I was going to ignore this thread but was so irritated that i had to reply. All i can say is please get real people. Do you honestly think there is going to be mass murder at the private boys school? Sounds like an Agatha Christie movie!!! Maybe a land mine on the rugby field.

I want to leave SA but cant always deal with this hell hole syndrome.