Watch out what you are saying

[Guest Mauritz]

I find this topic interesting, although I don't really understand it Just to make it clear - I'm not a religious person and I am Afrikaans. I have nothing against religious people, blacks, gays or obese people - that doesn't mean I look the other way when something amuses me, when I see something funny, disturbing or just plain wrong. I'm not politically correct and I don't pay much attention to the current laws and regulations. Certain things that are legal today, were illegal not so long ago etc. I make up my own mind.

When it comes to the 'OMG' factor - we have one 'nation' (probably the majority white South Africans) who refrain from using the expression - mainly due to religious beliefs. On the other hand, we have the Aussies (mainly Christian background), who do not seem to care that much.

If a religious person have the right to be upset by the use of certain phrases, because it is against his/her beliefs - does that same religious person have the right to be upset or to take action against visible gay people in public or in a work situation??? Or do they accept that one - if so, why not accepting the OMG thing as well. In either cases, we don't know whether these people will be condemned to Hell by God, do we??? Some religions belief this, but they can't be 100% sure. Isn't it more a case of personal 'taste' - personal belief or a personal comfort zone???

If a religious person can ask/demand that his/her way of life be respected - that is, for example, swearing, blasphemy, dress code etc - can other non-religious people then demand similar 'things'. If one person (or a group of people) belief, for example, in a healthy diet and lifestyle - can they ask severely obese people not to walk around in mini-skirts and bikinis??? I know it's a cheap shot, but I can go on and on.

I know very, very good hearted and kind people, who use the OMG expression. I also know very perverted and dishonest people who are very, very religious and obviously do not talk like that. Where do we draw the line???

I write openly about the pathetic attitude of African politicians and the fact that there are very little progress or economic success stories in Africa. Some people automatically assume I'm a racist. During the last year, many black writers have done the same (some articles can be seen on this forum) and believe me, they don't pull punches. Of course, nobody will call them racists. Personally I'm so sick and tired of this 'sensitivity'.

In the world there are many different 'communities' - they can be minority groups, nations, countries etc. Some are successful, other are not - some are so different that they stand out (Zimbabwe for example) - people do stare, get angry, make fun of it etc. That is, in my opinion, natural pressure to normalise conditions. In the case of Zimbabwe - if there was a Potgieter instead of a Mugabe, what then? ............. it would've rained 'speenvarke en babers.'

I'll never forget my first meeting with GALTA (Gay & Lesbian Tourism Australia) - a gay man and woman were representatives. They promoted gay tourism in the Southern Queensland region and pointed out to the hotel/motel industry, why the industry is reluctant to accommodate gay couples. They pointed out that some motel owners are worried that the presence of gay couples will have a negative impact on other business, because of their behaviour and lifestyles. They stated that most people associate gay people with the Mardi Grass type, where in fact nobody would be able to tell a gay person apart for anyone else just by appearance or behaviour. They stated that they themselves were normal like anyone else - with a job, mortgage etc and that they themselves are offended by the behaviour of some gay people.

I know the above sounds very obvious - I bring this up, because anyone in the wide world have the right to voice their opinion in the first place, especially if they don't like what they hear or see. A gay person can condemn the behaviour of another gay person, without consequences. In the case of race, obesity and homosexuality - it seems that it easily falls in the class of discrimination. If you're the wrong colour or sexual orientation and you voice your opinion, then you're easily branded and shot down.

I think we live in a hyper sensitive time zone, where people use the law and sometimes religion to push themselves through life. We can joke about the Kiwi's (and their sheep), about the moaning Poms, about the van der Merwes and of course the Jews (who has suffered more than the Jews???) - but oh dear, just dare to write the truth (in some cases) or joke about some other issues ....................

There are many, many people who doesn't know where they belong - so they sit and wait ....... and wait. They pounce on anything that they can to push there little agenda. If you know where you belong and who you are - why worry about little things??? Nobody in this country can take a religion or your sexuality away. Both are private anyhow - nobody's business. If one flaunts this - of course someone is going to have something to say about it.

This is where I have lots of respect for the Aussie Christians - they don't ask you to which church you go to, when they first meet you (like some Afrikaans South Africans). Some Afrikaans speaking South Africans assume everyone with a white skin must be a Christian - if you state that you're not - 'speenvarke en babers'. The Aussie Christians don't ignore or shut you out if you are not one of them. They don't flaunt their religion - they just go about their daily business, living their lifestyle without judging everyone else. I've met many Aussies - only to find out months (sometimes years) later, that they are active Christians. I know many good people that are not Christians - therefore I believe in the 'goodness' of people - I don't pay much attention to the religious side, colour issue, sexual orientation or stereotypes of society.

To sum it up - why must I be careful of what I'm saying? Isn't it better to say - 'DON'T BE SO SENSITIVE' instead. We can all communicate - we're the only species that can communicate so clearly and so successfully. If I say something that's offensive to someone else - I expect people to talk to me - not to sit in a corner feeling sorry for themselves, trying to find a way 'to get back to me.' If someone is offensive - I talk to them - ask questions to see where they're coming from. If it is a real redneck - then I don't even bother - they're everywhere, part of the furniture.

If I must take everyone's feelings into account before I open my mouth - I'll never be able to utter a word - I'll be gargling PC hogwash the newest brand of mouthwash.

I studied Buddhist philosophy for a while (as well as Taoism, Confucism). One picture in Buddhist Symbolism stayed with me - a picture of someone sitting under a tree in meditation. All these nasty things in life (verbal abuse, swearing, temptation for drugs, pornography, the devil etc) comes from the outside - trying to penetrate this persons personal space. As soon as it reaches this persons personal space, all the uglies turns into flower petals, falling softly to the ground. By reacting to all these things - we just go crazy - we get angry, sad or depressed. By being creative, we can change these situations/issues into something beautiful or useful.

Be very careful of what you're saying if you want to be 'in' or part with a specific community

Edited February 10, 2008 by Mauritz

[Red]

I do hope people take the time to read what Mauritz has written above. Take the time to read it - even long it may seem, it makes a lot of sense, and it's good to see some input without one side having a dig at the other.

Thank you for broadening my outlook.

[Just B]

Good post Mauritz,

Perhaps it was the title of the post "Watch out what you are saying" that set me off, particularly being told again by an individual how we must behave because of there beliefs or religion. But all said and done some walked away not having enjoyed the dabate and may be even feeling a little sore. But I think it was good and do believe in a good discussion to make us all think for a moment.

Thanks again all.

K&B

[Retha_hhr]

Well said Mauritz.

If there is one thing that I like about the christians in Canada and most probably the christians in any first world country, is that the ones that sit in church with you, is genuine christians, not like in Namibia/South Africa where so many sat there to be seen and to keep up a front. I do not like swearing of any kind, Afrikaans is a rich enough language that one will find the correct adjective to describe how you feel without having to opt for a swear word. Swearing in any language is bad taste and has nothing to do with religion.

But with free speech you will have to accept that you will not always be able to dodge the blasphemy of God's name. I rather live in a world where I have to distance myself a bit from people who swear before I live in a world where they take it too far and and you loose your freedom. Taking away freedom of speech and you sit with dictatorship. I watch a documentary the other day about how the British has lost most of their freedom and how the Americans fight to keep the little freedom they still have. Canada is on a very dangerous path to also try and please too many people that they are loosing their freedom of speech.

In Namibia/South Africa we were used to freedom of speech, if we do not like something we say it. We were lucky in the sense that people didn't use God's name so much, but many Afrikaans speaking people can swear like a sailor. Swearing and blasphemy of God's name can be put side by side. Remember those who use God's name is using it as a swear word. So swear is swear, there is no big or small sin.

I value my freedom of speech, so I prefer to withdraw from conversation where swearing of any kind, including God's name is going on. I rather have no friends before I mix with people who use obscene language, tell dirty jokes. But I do not want to put laws in place that regulate what comes out of people's mouths. What is good for the goose is good for the gang and that kind of law put a stone around your neck too. No thank you.

People anyways has the tendency to swear less around a person when they discover that that person do not participate in it. Or they will ignore you, which is fine by me too.

Retha

Edited February 9, 2008 by Retha_hhr

[Guest Mauritz]

Dear Friends,

Just sharing a disturbing aspect, often on this forum too:

Strange how swear words are disguised with %$#@&*- letters, but oh my god and OMG are used liberally. Surely we all know the consequence of the unnecessary miss-use of this expression?

Wilna

Again, just to make it clear. I think the original post was great, as well as all the others. I have nothing against people who don't like certain issues, whether it's religion or personal. I have issues as well, what is important is that we have a right to bring it up and that we find civilized ways in dealing with these issues.

I rather live in a society where there is a 'liquorice all sorts' atmosphere, than in a society where people separate themselves from others, without ANY communication. If a group of Afrikaans speaking South Africans want to treat me as the devil (like they did on numerous occasions), because I don't go to the same church as them or rather to no church at all - I would like to be able communicate about that.

Although I don't go to church, I also have a thorough religious background. In many cases, I do know the Bible better than some of these people. It is wrong and just plain rude to turn a cold shoulder to your fellow man, because you think you're a bit higher on the ladder of humanity, whatever the reason. There is nothing wrong, making fun of the situation or openly debating it. That way all people can see where the other side is coming from - everybody can learn something. Again, this is just an example. There are millions of people in the world - I'm not going to sit and cry in a corner, because a small group of people exclude me due to their religious/personal beliefs. I can and do mix with the liquorice all sorts, where I daily learn something new about humanity.

I have little respect for someone who just 'get the kittens', because I said something they don't like or who try to sort me into the 'other side' or try to label me as a certain stereotype - whether it's a racist, a homophobic or whatever. This is a very reactive attitude - people immediately assume they're right, just because of a recent law, a verse in the Bible, the current political flavour etc. If life was just so simple.

I DO NOT separate myself from these people - just make use of every opportunity to show them the funny and sunny side of themselves - they all do come around and finally see that they are just part of the taste of that 'deurmekaar hoender potjie.' Themselves alone would never be able to make up the ingredients of that 'potjie.'

In a good 'potjie' where is sometimes the presence of oil and water, fat & fire or alcohol, garlic, chilli - even the 'poepol' of a chook now and then. All of us, make the world turn around. Have you watch these people who stare at that 'potjie', then finally dish a bit into their plate, only to sit and 'dissect' the whole lot with a knife and fork - picking out this, picking out that. I always feel sorry for their sensitive 'taste buds', but it sure is funny to watch them.

The ones that go for the salad, because of the presence alcohol that evaporated anyhow - they're sure are funniest of all. Sometime they don't even realise there is NO alcohol present in that pot

Edited February 9, 2008 by Mauritz

[Nilo]

Mauritz, miskien hou hulle nie van al-co-hol (elke hol) in hulle kos nie!!! net die hoenner se hol!! Edited February 9, 2008 by Nilo

[Guest JWEL]

Yes, the title is of-putting and a far cry from my initial idea of a question regarding this. But I'm ME, accept me or toss me aside, I wouldn't know, this is internet.

Two sensitive sides here.

One being stepped on the toes because who dare tell them that using this expression is wrong, they WANT to make use of it at all cost or protect those that do.

Other side immediately thanked that this daring issue is raised, because they feel the same and they again feel stepped on the toes, because people want to raise that they feel different.

Maybe a third group, this side, that side? live and let live? keep both sides happy to feel 'in'.

The mere fact that we have reached 4 pages, says that this topic tickles the braincells.

OK, so finally you got me!! Reading Retha's post puts things in perspective. As already said, I believe what I believe, no-one will change that for me. But, same as Mauritz who wants to say what he wants to say, I sometimes choose to do so too, see "This Topic"!

I sneaked to the study while everyone is still sleeping to quickly post, do not have ADSL/Broadband. I am tearing myself away from the forum, cleared out everything in my controls to force me to stay away. Difficult situation to have flights booked for Aus, and from there we do not know if the next stop will be Adelaide or Auckland.

So, cheers vir eers. When we have the privilege of ADSL Down Under, I will partake fully again.

In the meantime, enjoy this thread, seems to at least be a very necessary vibrant debate.

[no longer interested]

. Difficult situation to have flights booked for Aus, and from there we do not know if the next stop will be Adelaide or Auckland.

So, cheers vir eers. When we have the privilege of ADSL Down Under, I will partake fully again.

In the meantime, enjoy this thread, seems to at least be a very necessary vibrant debate.

hi W

what do you mean aus or nz thought you were coming "home to aus!?

shalom S

Edited February 10, 2008 by NorCalAussie

[Just B]

Hey there,

I realise the post and discussion has stayed a little. But as a forum / discussion things will evolve as answers to the orginal subject often raise other issues. That in some cases is more the issue than the orginal post. But that is why it's a forum and not a panel of experts (straight answers still questionable).

I think this thread has been wonderful and one day if we meet at a get together that we understand each other alot more. And ultimately be friends.

Mauritz,

I hope I'm not the poepol of a chook, just pulling your chain.

Regards,

K&B

Edited February 10, 2008 by K & B

[Gizmo]

I see your point Mauritz about how difficult it is to be constantly PC - more like treading on eggshells.

I don't for a second believe that we can all be completely PC, as we all come from different backgrounds, cultures etc.

But, having said that, if somebody asks me to refrain from saying a particular something because it offends them, then I have no problem with ceding my freedom of speech out of respect for them. Probably the reason why is not because I am goody-goody, but I am an extremely blunt and forthright person (I would be the tough old bird in the potjie), and I am well-aware that diplomacy and tact aren't my strong points. Since I have such a thick-skin myself (you couldn't offend me if you tried ;-)), I make a point of attempting to be more sensitive to those around me.

I don't think we should all begin to suddenly adopt a PC attitude and pussy-foot around each other, but, if somebody does point out that they are offended by something, I think we should take the necessary steps to find a common ground of respect.

Edited February 10, 2008 by Gizmo

[Guest mrs mupersan]

Funny thing this. I say "oh my god" often. I'm not religious. But out of respect for those people who don't like this saying bandied about, I have always shortened it to omg so that I don't offend anyone by actually "saying" the word god. Now even this is not enough! And as for the swearing..... The *^%$ is so that you DON'T have to read a swear word.

I really don't mind someone asking me not to blaspheme (ie say christ or god) if it offends them - yes, you are taking away a bit of my freedom of speech, but this is acceptable in order not to offend. Should I try to mask these words in an abbreviation (for your benefit & sensibilities) in order to express myself, and you are still offended - I'm sorry to say - you're going to have to build a little bridge to get over yourself.

Mandy

Edited February 10, 2008 by mrs mupersan

[Blossom]

En omdat almal nou in die moderne tye waarin ons lewe nou met so baie 'Freedom of speech' sit.......

wat het geword van plein ou goeie maniere?

respek vir ander se gevoelens?

ordentlikheid?

As die hedendaagse mens met al sy vryheid van spraak dalk moet gaan vir 'n onderhoud by 'n nuwe werk, gaan hy dan nog sit en 'OMG' en 'poepol' en 'n spade 'n spade noem? Of gaan hy dan sit en voorgee hy is iets wat hy nie is nie, net om die werk te kry?

Is dit nie dan geveinsd en oneerlik nie?

Nee, ek kan jou 10 koeie wed dat Mnr. Reguit En Se Wat Hy Wil dan sal sit met 'n bek vol tande en 'n vroom gesig.

Se wat jy wil, doen wat jy wil en leef soos jy wil, maar doen dit sodat jou ouers en jou kinders hulle nie sal skaam vir jou nie. Maar bowenal, dat jy saans net voor die slaap jou oorval en jy le met jou eie gedagtes, dan het jy 'peace of mind'

KD.

Edited February 11, 2008 by Kannidood

[Guest Mauritz]

wat het geword van plein ou goeie maniere?

respek vir ander se gevoelens?

ordentlikheid?

As die hedendaagse mens met al sy vryheid van spraak dalk moet gaan vir 'n onderhoud by 'n nuwe werk, gaan hy dan nog sit en 'OMG' en 'poepol' en 'n spade 'n spade noem? Of gaan hy dan sit en voorgee hy is iets wat hy nie is nie, net om die werk te kry?

Is dit nie dan geveinsd en oneerlik nie?

Dit is nou goeie wysheid wat gesels Ek stem saam daarmee - dit is seker hoekom ek nooit vir iemand anders gewerk het nie - ek hou daarvan om te wees wie ek is. Ek hou nie van hierdie goeie pootjie voorsit ding nie.

Ek is seker skuldig aan die ordentlikheid dinge - ek is baie ordentlik wanneer dit by dames kom - ek gee nie veel om vir die manlike geslag nie - of hulle nou verfynd is of nie - hulle is groot en lelik genoeg om na hulle self te kyk. Ek is voorheen oor die kole gehaal omdat ek 'sekere dinge' nie voor dames sal sê nie - dalk is dit verkeerd in ons 'nuwe era.' Dalk sit ek 'n goeie pootjie voor daar.

Wat ordentlikheid betref - dit is iets wat stadigaan by die venster uitgaan. Snaaks is snaaks en sommige dinge is snaaks vir een persoon, maar tragies vir 'n ander. Dit sal seker nooit verander nie.