Watch out what you are saying

[Nilo]

Nilo - you cannot compare the two cases at all. They really don't have anything in common.

Gizmo I was not at all comparing the two issues. Please read my post again.

[Heymanse]

I agree with you RenierPret. It is very sad that, as life changed and became more modern, mankind has changed their interpretation of the Great Book to suit their lifestyle.

My husband and I are most definitely against blasphemy and hearing the words "OMG" makes me cringe. My children can't stand it as well. Knowing that I will live in a country where these words are "commonly" used, makes me realise why God has sent us on this path. If we can have just one person see the light in this regard by making a statement against it, it will be one more person saved for His Kingdom.

[Guest JWEL]

To answer Mauritz's question on what the Christian stance is on the 2 topics/threads:

To my knowledge and where we function in our religious environment, much is left to the decision of the individual lately. Yes, the church takes it up in their statements, each church to it's own. In my church (NG) blasphemy is a no-no because this is one of the clear answers from the Bible, homosexuality is seen as a sin, with a lot of verses to confirm that as well, but ...

the difference is that Christians are supposed to have tolerance with the person, but not the deed.

i.e. 1. Because I'm not guilty of blasphemy, it does not make me perfect/without sin. 2. I looooove my homosexual cousin and enjoy his company, but I'll never agree with his way of life.

Regarding the rest of your post, it is known that "the church" often has changed their views and disciplines, even through the ages. Personally I think it is because we are merely sinful people trying to do what we believe is right according to what suits us and we often do not understand what the Bible says very clearly. The "rules" we set for ourselves will probably change through ages to come as well.

BUT Some topics is stated as clear as can be in the Bible and one cannot argue around it. This is if one believes the Bible as the true word of God. If the Bible is not the pointer an individual cares to go by, well of course the views will differ.

This is probably what Nilo meant in both our threads, people have different opinions on different subjects. Still I believe we can express our views by tackling the subject/issue and not a specific individual. This makes for balanced, interesting and healthy conversation. In this way I might not change my mind about the topic, but I will be the wiser about different/other's views.

And to conclude, if someone incessantly insults someone I love, I will ask the person to be kind enough to refrain from doing it, or else I try to stay out of his/her way.

This is a forum, a place for healthy discussion and I made a positive decision long ago to stay clear of threads/views/topics that offend me. This is the button X, top right hand corner.

I desperately need to know what I am in for in Australia. Maybe I should have rather asked this question outright instead of making a statement. My 'question' was kindly answered by a lot of forumites, although of different opinion. Thank you for that.

Edited February 7, 2008 by JWEL

[Nilo]

This is probably what Nilo meant in both our threads, people have different opinions on different subjects. Still I believe we can express our views by tackling the subject/issue and not a specific individual. This makes for balanced, interesting and healthy conversation. In this way I might not change my mind about the topic, but I will be the wiser about different/other's views.

Exactly!!!

I don't want everyone to agree with me it's not neccessary as we will then not be idividuals.

The ideal is to be able to discuss different points of view or opinions without it becoming as issue!! At least try and see where the other is coming from.

Being a Reborn Christian does not make you an angel all of a sudden. Lots of people think they need to wear the "Christian mask" now and it's not at all what is suppose to happen. We are and will stay Human.

Regarding Homosexuals - God loves them just as much as he loves you me and the other guy! Whether we like it or not!!

[Gizmo]

Nilo - you cannot compare the two cases at all. They really don't have anything in common.

Gizmo I was not at all comparing the two issues. Please read my post again.

I have gone back and re-read your post. You are clearly comparing two forms of freedom of speech in that you are questioning why Melries response is different to each ("you have to be able to take it as well as dish it out"). What you are missing (the part I am pointing out) is that these two things appear to be "freedoms" but in reality they are not and cannot be lumped as the same thing. The one is illegal and the other is merely rude - so in reality Melries differing responses to each case is completely understandable.

[Nilo]

Gizmo, if that's what you see/understand it's fine!

[Gizmo]

Just a thought to those who have stated that the Bible clearly states that homosexuality as a way of life is a sin. It was commented that you cannot "interpret" the Bible to "suit the present frame of mind". Do not forget that the Bible as we know it today is an interpretation on top of interpretation on top of interpretation of the events of history. It would be completely naive to think that todays Bible is an exact replica of the original texts. It is a fact that the current "moral attitude" of each age has been written into the Bible to suit the purposes of that time. There is no way of knowing that God has decreed homosexuality a sin, when the Bible has been written by Man and rewritten over the centuries many times.

Although I am not a Christian, my core moral belief system is to accept and respect other peoples choices and way of life even if they differ from my own, after all, what gives me the right to judge others?

[Gizmo]

Gizmo, if that's what you see/understand it's fine!

Look I don't want to argue with you. I am commenting on what you wrote.

If you meant something different, then please enlighten me.

[Navigator]

It would be completely naive to think that todays Bible is an exact replica of the original texts. It is a fact that the current "moral attitude" of each age has been written into the Bible to suit the purposes of that time. There is no way of knowing that God has decreed homosexuality a sin, when the Bible has been written by Man and rewritten over the centuries many times.

Well I guess in that case there's no point to religion is there as it is man-made... Who knows, we may not even be close to the original Bible anymore at all... If that is what you believe I suggest reading a few of Dr Willie Marais' books.

[Nilo]

Gizmo, enough!!!!

[Gizmo]

Well I guess in that case there's no point to religion is there as it is man-made... Who knows, we may not even be close to the original Bible anymore at all... If that is what you believe I suggest reading a few of Dr Willie Marais' books.

Of course there is still a point to religion! I didn't say that it is man-made, I said that the Bible is written by man, who is not perfect (remember?).

I am just saying that there are dangers to taking the Bible too literally. There are many texts in the Bible that specifically remind us that it is Gods job to judge, not ours.

Live and let live I say.

[Gizmo]

Gizmo, enough!!!!

You are kidding right? I am asking a perfectly acceptable question! I would like to understand where you are coming from and if I am misunderstanding you.

Your comment above is out of line and disrespectful, or is this just the way you treat all people who dare to disagree with you?

[Springbok]

What I can say is that I am not sure if there is an "official" Christian stance to Homosexuality. Some Churches are accepting and others are not.

You are probably going to get more opinion and individuals beliefs, rather than a holistic answer.

I am a Christian and personally I believe that homosexuality is wrong and a sin in God's eyes. That is MY interpretation of the Bible. BUT it is no bigger sin than stealing or adultery or murder or gossip or hate or jealousy or strife or whatever. Anything that is not from the Spirit of God, is sin. So if a church says that homosexuals are not welcome, then it can just as well shut its doors to everyone else. All of us have been born into a world of sin and none of us are perfect angels. Even the apostle Paul wrote that the (sinful) things he did not want to do, that he did, while the (good) things he wanted to do, he did not do. Such is the nature of sin which creates a constant spiritual battle within ourselves. I don't agree with the lifestyle and beliefs of homosexual people, but I am not judging the person, as I am a sinner myself. We don't have to agree with how other people live their lives, as it's a personal choice and something that's between them and God. Judgement is God's alone, not ours.

For me this is best summarised in Galatians 5:17-23 ~

17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 018But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

[Gizmo]

I am a Christian and personally I believe that homosexuality is wrong and a sin in God's eyes. That is MY interpretation of the Bible. BUT it is no bigger sin than stealing or adultery or murder or gossip or hate or jealousy or strife or whatever. Anything that is not from the Spirit of God, is sin. So if a church says that homosexuals are not welcome, then it can just as well shut its doors to everyone else. All of us have been born into a world of sin and none of us are perfect angels. Even the apostle Paul wrote that the (sinful) things he did not want to do, that he did, while the (good) things he wanted to do, he did not do. Such is the nature of sin which creates a constant spiritual battle within ourselves. I don't agree with the lifestyle and beliefs of homosexual people, but I am not judging the person, as I am a sinner myself. We don't have to agree with how other people live their lives, as it's a personal choice and something that's between them and God. Judgement is God's alone, not ours.

For me this is best summarised in Galatians 5:17-23 ~

17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 018But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

That is a really good point! I never thought of it that way!

[Nilo]

You are kidding right? I am asking a perfectly acceptable question! I would like to understand where you are coming from and if I am misunderstanding you.

Your comment above is out of line and disrespectful, or is this just the way you treat all people who dare to disagree with you?

Just to let all know that we sorted this one out via PM which is the right thing to do!!

[Just B]

I think we need to consider the context the Bible was written in. Slavery and beating other humans in the bible under certain curcumstances was considered ok. The reason I don't look to deep in the book and rather follow my conscience is that we cannot reall yknow how much in so called divinely inspired and how much is political banter of the time. We also have to consider that it was the Romans (Constintine) who finally decide what would be included in teh bible and what would not. There are some very interesting texts that were consider heracy. The book of Enoch for instance was one of the foremost books followed by the early Christians, until such time the Romans considered some of the practices to be pagon and a heracy. The bible was also offically put together as a single work in the year 300 CE. That's 300 years after Jesus the so called christ walked the earth.

I think number one, that none of us are in a position to judge. We have often support ideas, governments or communites that are anything but "christian". We also make a judgement as if we accually know it all. For all I know God may be a bisexual, black women. (not that I belive God even exists in a human form such as us)

my closing arguement is "live and Live", live your own life as you see fit, and if the way someone eals leeds there life doesn't harm anyone (and don't mean sensiblities) then let them live.

K&B

[Melrie]

It is very sad that, as life changed and became more modern, mankind has changed their interpretation of the Great Book to suit their lifestyle.

Like apartheid that was once just and fair and according to the "Great Book" and then ... oops! sorry god changed his mind ???? It's not OK anymore

Is this another example of "changing the interpretation to suit lifestyle"?

Ai tog ... die boere darem

[Melrie]

How dare we change our mind away from the Great Book on:

It being OK to sell your daughter into slavery (Exodus 21:7)

No man allowed to have contact with a woman in her period of menstrual unseemliness (Lev. 15:19)

Men not being allowed to cut their hair short (Lev. 19:27)

Putting a person to death who works on the sabbath is permissable (Exodus 35:2)

Eating shellfish is an abnormality (Lev 11:10)

Etc ....

No man, it is an abomination I tell you - who can keep up with how the Great Book has been twisted to suit "lifestyle"

Edited February 9, 2008 by Melrie

[Guest JWEL]

I am with you on one thing, people often misinterpret the Bible for their own benefit and call themselves Christian. We could go on for ages in throwing arguments back and forth about all of this. But one thing I believe is that everyone's actions in life will be measured individually.

Problem I am experiencing in this post is that you are having a field day in insulting Christians and their beliefs. Some religions are against pork, others against showing their faces in public. Can we now dissect them too? I think we'll have a good share of trouble if we do.

Initially when I wanted to post this topic, I actually just had the question, if this is what we can expect in Aus and somewhere along the line, my idea changed. I admit in my initial post I should have started a clearer picture, that fellow Christians who have fallen into the habit of blaspheming, should think again and others that do not care for God should please respect our belief and not insult us in doing so.

Other religions have different names for their gods, as was mentioned already. They too would request others not to disrespect their god's name. So if you wish to respect others in life, you will refrain from using names like Yahweh, Allah, God, Lord, Christ. Why even call their names if you do not believe they exist.

So, please could we now put our differences aside and show some respect. Christians belief in the Bible as the true Word of God, no downgrading argument will change their view. Furthermore my personal view is to love mankind regardless, but not the sin and as I have said, I know I am a sinner too.

Could we please agree to disagree and leave it at that?

Edited February 9, 2008 by JWEL

[no longer interested]

How dare we change our mind away from the Great Book on:

No man allowed to have contact with a woman in her period of menstrual unseemliness (Lev. 15:19)

Men not being allowed to cut their hair short (Lev. 19:27)

Eating shellfish is an abnormality (Lev 11:10)

a lot of what you say above is actually practiced by ultra conservative jewish people . known as lubavitch or hasidic and The origin of the Torah provides the main stay of what is faith based

The Torah is composed of 5 books called in English Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. They chronicle the history of the Hebrews and also contain the commandments that Jews are to follow.

Rabbinic Judaism holds that the Torah extant today is the same one that was given to Moses by God on Mount Sinai. Maimonides explains: "We do not know exactly how the Torah was transmitted to Moses. But when it was transmitted, Moses merely wrote it down like a secretary taking dictation....[Thus] every verse in the Torah is equally holy, as they all originate from God, and are all part of God's Torah, which is perfect, holy and true."

and also how you live i.e no eating of certain foods not eating meat and milk together certain kosher practices comes from the talmud this is like a user guide to living a jewish life see here http://www.jewfaq.org/torah.htm

[no longer interested]

Other religions have different names for their gods, as was mentioned already. They too would request others not to disrespect their god's name. So if you wish to respect others in life, you will refrain from using names like Yahweh, Allah, God, Lord, Christ. Why even call their names if you do not believe they exist.

Actually those of us of Jewish heritage and faith do not write G~d's name out in full, see its considered blasphemy to do so, see here

http://www.jewfaq.org/name.htm

actually I shouldnt be on the board its shabbas (the shabat) the sabbath http://www.jewfaq.org/shabbat.htm

see ya

[Guest JWEL]

Thanks for the sites explaining this, Shar. Will take time to study it in depth.

[Just B]

So, please could we now put our differences aside and show some respect. Christians belief in the Bible as the true Word of God, no downgrading argument will change their view. Furthermore my personal view is to love mankind regardless, but not the sin and as I have said, I know I am a sinner too.

Could we please agree to disagree and leave it at that?

I think what you have discovered is that there are differences, and very strong differences at that. And they won't be put aside for the sake of keeping any peace. Your question was rised on the assumption that possibly only non believers or Christians frequent this site. Australia has both freedom of religion and freedom of speech. (which means that others can say even what you don't like) In an adult forum such as this you will not always get to hear what you want.

Some members raised the issue of the relevance of the bibles laws and the fact that they were documented in a time when it was considered important. In my opinion no one here questioned the fundimentals of Christianity. But do not assume that only Christians are religious and would find reason to engage in a debate, if you are a true believer, you will not offended as your beliefs are solid and you have examined them to ensure that you are not a mere follower but a believer and practice your beliefs what ever they may be.

Personally I found this thread interesting as members were discussing some extremely important that we should be prepared to discuss, question and discover.

I do apologse if you are offended by the opinion of others, but after all they feel as strongly about their beliefs and sometimes the persscution of other because of them.

K&B

Edited February 9, 2008 by K & B

[Gizmo]

Jwel - I don't thing anybody at any point insulted Christians in their beliefs.

The entire thread went completely off topic (I am one of the guilty parties here), but nobody insulted or disparaged Christianity.

What did happen is that people aired their views and their interpretations... and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

There are a lot of grey areas in all religions and personally, if find it very interesting to read how different people interpret it.

I find it interesting that you felt that Christianity was a bit persecuted in this thread... what about homosexuality parts? If there was any persecution of Christianity in this thread, there was a LOT more persecution of homosexuality. But, having thrown the fox among the chickens, it is my belief that in fact nobody was persecuted here at all - there was a very interesting sharing of ideas and beliefs.

The lesson for me out of this thread - even though it went off topic - is that we should all be mindful of what we say. Blaspheming is disrespectful of Christian beliefs, and some of the comments about homosexuality could also be construed as disrespectful and patronizing. On other threads (not this one), a disturbing amount of racism can be seen, and I assure you that this is not an "all White" forum.

So I guess we should all take the time to carefully consider what we say, if not for ourselves and our own personal growth, but as a mark of respect to those around us. I don't blaspheme in real life (I have many religious friends and I respect them and their beliefs). I have been guilty of using OMG online though, and if it offends, then I will refrain from using it in the future.

Edited February 9, 2008 by Gizmo

[Guest JWEL]

K&B and Gizmo, I agree with a lot you wrote. True, like I have also said, a forum is there for discussion. Problem is, it went off topic and we are far past the initial idea.

One mistake I did make on this topic was that I never thought it was so extremely important to people to use these expressions so that they have to fight the religion battle to make me understand that they won’t refrain from saying it. You see, no-one said it in so many words, but this is what I can derive from it all.

OK, I know you are going to say that I am making assumptions here, but I am doing this to make a point: A lot of misconceptions can be born within the casual written word. The understanding being different than the intention. Face to face it would have been sorted out immediately.

I realise that a lot of people from different beliefs read this site. That’s why I already said on the first page of this thread, ‘to whom it apply within their belief’. You see, I can only give my opinion from a Christian perspective because this is who I am and that explains my actions, same as all the others for what they feel driven to post.

I don't feel offended that people differ, at my age that would be very childish. In my daily life I communicate with lots of different people with different views and accept them all for who they are. This does not change me or what I believe.

If you are interested in a little bit more about my way of thinking: I was 6 when my first question about apartheid was asked in fury towards a group of (to me) old men, laughing at me for my suggestion. I have fought against apartheid ever since. I am one who always helps the underdog. The persecution of the Jews will be one that we (my German-speaking husband included) will always find difficulty in comprehending and we will reject the Nazi actions as long as we live. If someone less familiar comes over for dinner, I make sure of their preferences of food, not to have pork on the table if it offends them or halaal within their acceptance. In my daily life my paths cross a lot of homosexual people with whom I have good relations and yes, I believe they are God’s children too. Do I think I am a hero for acting like this? Definitely not! I am all too conscious of my own mistakes.

Problem with a forum is, if someone does not have the time to read every word and understand it’s meaning, it can be easily misunderstood. One thing I do not appreciate is when someone quotes a single line, and misconstrue the actual meaning it had within the full concept of a post. Please understand me correctly, I am not talking about this thread, but in general to explain how people often misinterpret the meaning of the writer.

Like I already said previously and this I wrote with my initial post in mind: ‘if someone incessantly insults someone I love, I will ask the person to be kind enough to refrain from doing it, or else I try to stay out of his/her way. . . This is the button X, top right hand corner.”

Furthermore in explanation: Due to a very high telephone bill the last two months, I cannot dial in so often any more. I spend too much time on the forum as it is. So, I tried to end the thread I started.

I do not have the energy or even enough knowledge to debate on this topic any further and will leave it to those who can.