Ozzie xenophobia?

[Dedrei]

Just wondering ....

Anybody experienced reversed 'racism' here in oz?

Meaning, have you been unfairly treated by your colleagues and/or management because you are not orginally from Australia? You get abused, not physically, and generally looked down upon.

Just wondering if there are some people that have experienced this in some degree.

"Please keep your replies as clean as possible"

[ExASP]

Nope, cant say that I did. In fact, most Ozzies I have met are very friendly and helpful. They invite us to all their functions and babysit when we ask. Also the fact that we speak Afrikaans gives them a kick. I have been teased about my Souf Effrican accent but always in good humour.

[chatterbug]

Hi Dedrei,

I must say I have not experienced this at all. Maybe because of who I am. I must say that coming from and surviving Africa made me quite tough in that regard. I have an excellent relationship with my work mates and we (they have embraced my wife too) consider them as our friends. We joke around alot about accents (both ways), rugby, cricket, you name it! but always in good spirit. I have taught them some good Afrikaans phrases and swear words, which they use against me at leisure! I think you need to give as much as you take (re the friendly banter and jesting), and not get too serious about it all.

I think my colleagues will all get disappointed if I had to announce that I am going to start supporting the Wallabies for example. That will take the fun (and betting - which I have won after the last trinations) out of it all. A bunch of us are going to the Boks vs Wallabies game on the 15th June in Brissie and they are all expecting me to go all out and to dress in GREEN (someting to use as a target I suppose)

Anyway I'm sure there is some of that around, because we are all humans.....but I find my "soon to be", fellow Australians quite a tolerant and accommodating lot. After all this is a country of many immigrants!

I think if you are trying to fit in and you are respectfull of the ways of your new country, you'll be fine!

Aussie BUG

[ToastedSandra]

Hi ya

Yip I can say I have, I started a job last dec in a jeweler and all the girls were cheeky to me. It was kind of not the right time either as all I needed was to make friends cause I was so home sick and knew no one. Anyway after a few weeks I had enough and rolled my eyes at the one girl, the boss was watching and called me into the office and he said "I know South Africans have a bad temper and I want you to control yours".

Urg I looked at him and said thanks for giving me this opportunity but you are discriminating against my country, and I cannot continue to work here, bye

I spent a week thinking about what happened and couldn't believe it. I also find people in shops get cheeky with me when I ask for things like phone cards or post offices.

I dunno, I know I am also living in a small town and they might not be used to foreigners but they can at least be friendly... I dunno

Sandra

[Ajay]

This is an interesting thread...!!!

I must say that I haven't come across this kind of behaviour at all, but maybe it is as ToastedSandra says - maybe it is a 'small-town' phenomenon? All my dealings with locals, both business, personal and as a consumer, have been nothing but pleasant. In fact, if anything, the fact that I'm not a local often plays in my favour because they are so interested in our experiences and stories.

Interested to see more responses though...

Ajay

[Guest Seoul Sister]

Meaning, have you been unfairly treated by your colleagues and/or management because you are not orginally from Australia? You get abused, not physically, and generally looked down upon.

Hi Dedrei,

Yes, I have and I am not even in Australia !! While we were still deciding between a move to Australia and the USA I decided to join both the American Women's Club and the Australian & New Zealand Social Club for women. Hmmmmm, . I thought it would give me some indication or possibility for comparison between the two countries from the general feeling I get from the clubs and the ladies I meet... Good plan in theory. Only problem is that the Australian Social Club didn't allow me to join, as I am not Australian. The fact that I was considering moving to Australia made no difference and I wasn't allowed to join. While the American Club was very keen to have me and many of the ladies were very friendly (there were a few exceptions) !! At the Yank club I was never asked once why I wanted to join nor why I was attending, ppl generally loved the accent and wanted to know all about South Africa and our interesting lives.

My Scottish friend whom I have mentioned before, lives in Itaewon, which is the foreigners area of Seoul. She was invited to the Australian mom-&-tots group one morning, by her Australian neighbour. This is an invitation only group and when the Australian mom wanted to know whether my friend could join permanently they took a vote and my friend was voted out by 9 votes to 1 ! Which I find shocking, as she is SUCH a sweetheart, has a little girl the same age as everyone else and lives in their neighbourhood. I have to add these Australian moms are not plattelanders or plaasjapies, they are all from cities - Syds, Brissie, Melbourne, etc. She was very sad. I am hoping what I have seen thus far is just Australian women in organized group behaviour and not a general trend. We also have an Australian couple in our church and some Australians in the Residence where we live and they are all FABULOUS and SO friendly. In answer to your question - yes I have experienced prejudice against me by Australians. I don't think it was because I am from SA, rather because I am NOT from Oz.

With regard to prejudice in other countries I have lived in, I could probably write a book, especially the tolerant Dutch are not AT ALL as tolerant as ppl think !! I'm over it now. Not getting to know me better and discriminating against me because I am a Saffer is a reflection on them, not me !! Their loss.

Love

SS

Editing :

Thought I should probably also just add this to add some perspective on the matter: The same Australian Women's club who denied me membership because I wasn't Australian has a few American members.. Hehehehehe. The mind boggles....

Edited May 26, 2006 by Seoul Sister

[Danie]

Hi,

I was not sure to reply or not, but after thinking about it and reading some more replies, I have came to the conclusion that I have been on the receiving end of the stick. Well maybe not that severe as some of you, but some…

The small community I live in has got plenty saffies, most of them either work for the smelter or at the smelter and thus these people has got use to saffies being around for many years. However they have seen various ‘grades” of saffies and has learned the hard way that not all are hard working and loyal and therefore has created this front of “prove yourself and then I will like you”. I am here since Jan and only the past 2 months has most of them relaxed and value my input.

As for our past experience, most of them has heard it all, and don’t really want to hear it again… is that good or bad…?

Generally have I seen & experience kindness, acceptance & friendliness!

D

[Otto]

Very few bad experiences here, cause I live in a town of mostly first and second generation migrants. The only ones were a few at shops, but NEVER as much as in the RSA. I'll never forget trying to get me birth certificate and police clearance....

[Bob]

I remember seeing a documentary about Prisoners of War under the Japanese.

It's history, nowadays, that the Japanese took Singapore and imprisoned thousands of British, Australian and Indian troops for the duration of the War.

One English PoW was talking about his experiences in Changi prison camp, and spoke about the Australians.

He said that the Aussies would invariably say "What the hell do ya want, ya Pommie bastard??" every time he showed up on the scene.

It took him a long time to realise that the Aussies were actually being nice to him . . . by insulting him when they first see him. He finished by saying the time he spent with the Australian PoW's, he got to love them . . . "salt of the Earth" he said . . . and could "read" them like a book. They would do anything for him.

When Aussies first meet you, there is a formality . . . . a period when you are sizing them up and they are checking you out also.

Once an Aussie feels relaxed in your company, invariably they will insult you in some way when they first meet you. Some people think this just isn't on, but when you get used to it and give as good as you get, they love it.

It means you are saying "Good day" to them also.

I've just come from the bank to get some English Pounds for my trip. An old bloke was standing in front of me and when another old timer walked past, he said to me "Have ya checked ya pockets yet?" and nudging his old mate in front of me, implying that the old bloke in front of me was a pick-pocket.

He was insulting his old mate, in public, and implying that everyone had to watch themselves with him around!

That was a compliment to his mate . . . in a typical Australian style.

Some folks might think themselves being picked on by Aussies. How do you know it's not an Aussie just getting used to you and insulting you to say "Hi!" ???

[Guest Seoul Sister]

Hi Bob,

Thanks for that, as always I enjoyed the inside scoop from you. I am wondering what you as an Aussie find of my situation and that of my Scottish friend as I explained in my posting above...

In Seoul the other expat women see the Australians as unfriendly, snobbish, rude , exclusive and obsessed with mixing with their own. Eventhough I have met enough Aussies in my life to know some are fantastically funny, jovial, friendly and down-to-earth ppl (we could even take you as the posterboy ) I have to say that my faith in what I thought I knew has been shaken by my experiences here. I would love to hear your thoughts on this...

Love

SS

[ExASP]

Hello All, Me again

I read through all of the posts here and found it very interesting, I am shocked on the treatment some of you got, and I must say that on second thought there was just one man (my ex boss as well) who i thought might have been racist as you would call it.

However I live in a small town too in the middle of nowhere and have been to Perth as well, and I agree with Chatterbug on their experience.

As a matter of fact we have been invited in person (not just on the notice board at work) to attend a BBQ on Sunday.

NOw how is this: I spoke to another South African in Busselton and she told me that the Ozzie techhos dont want to employ South Africans because we "steal their work" Now I will find out for myself if that is true or not as we are going job hunitng pretty soon.

I do think though that you will find this kind of behaviour anywhere. In SA we saw the South Africans hated the Ozzies, thought the Americans were arrogant and so on and so forth.

On the whole I think the Ozzies are friendly

[Bob]

SS,

. . . . what's more to the point is do you want to mix with ppl that want to stick with themselves?

Aussies have an inate feeling that their ways are not socially acceptable with many other cultures (e.g. American) so they may tend to hang out with themselves because they can rubbish each other and know they are accepted nonetheless.

If they act like they can walk on water, just let them go. They'll soon learn they can't.

Go and find mates with other folk, like Poms or Canadians, who think more on the same wavelength to yourself.

In any given situation . . . ..workplace, church, footy game, up the pub, etc. . . . you'll always get the crowd that just feel insecure outside their "comfort zone". The only time they will bother to get to know anyone else is when they need company.

Personally, if someone gave me the brush-off, I'd say " . . . and a bl.... Merry Christmas to you too, mate!"

You find mates who you click with.

Others, you dismiss.

You may find mates with Poms (who have recently come to Australia also and are, therefore, seeking company), Kiwis, Germans, etc. if you don't get on with the local Aussies.

Just remember . . . you are the one cracking into their circle. They already have a network of old mates and family around that they can go to and hang out with, go to the Footy with, etc.

Don't despair . . . . there are some lovely folk out there waiting for you to rub shoulders with and get to share the good times with and help out in the rough times. . . . and they may not be Australian.

[Ajay]

Well, that's it decided then. You'll all have to move here to the Hills area in Sydney We honestly have a great bunch of people here - from all cultures and ethnicities. Riekie, SAS and a few others can back me up on this!

But seriously, in my business, I spend a lot of time phoning new contacts and so far (thumbs crossed!) I haven't come across any xenophobes - but I don't doubt that they are out there.

The friends that we have made so far are SAffers, Poms and Aussies mostlyn and we all get along fine, thankfully.

See you all in the Hills soon, then

Love

Ajay

[Dedrei]

So glad to hear from all of you. Started to feel like we were the only ones.

Cut a longstory short. We got to the chase as to why they are like this. One guy told us that they would have liked to have increases in wages, rather than having a foreigner imported into their workplace. Mean while, they don't know that the company didn't even pay for a thing for us to be in oz, so don't really know what their so upset about. And the firm is getting 6 more foreigners in in the next few months. Can you just imagine what this would do to the new people. With the six coming, the foreigners will be majority and then they will have to keep to them selves cause all of us are gonna stand together and stand up for ourselves.

Was worried for a while as everyone always talks about the positives about oz and never really about the negs. So people really need to get a balanced view of immigrating. Dis defnitief nie maanskyn en rose nie. Immigrasie is moeilik!!

Dedrei's husband

[Guest colton]

I have to agree with Bob. Most people find the australians rather rude and abrupt but not me! I don't know if it's just our life style but at home we constantly rash each other and tease, I have noticed though that our afrikaans friends, we are Durban born english, sometimes find it uncomfortable. In our family if someone DOESN'T tease and insult you then they definitely don't like you. Strange as it seems it is an honour to be joked with. My daughter's boyfriend, he is german, says he can't believe we are all so close by the way we talk to each other, e.g my sons call my daughter "ugly" as in "hello ugly" although she is totally stunning. Point is if you feel comfortable enough with someone you CAN joke and call them things because they already know how much you really like/love them.

Back to the point about the ozzies. My brothers father-in-law and I always have a good go at each other when we get together. He is a true blue australian yachty and I am a true blue south african surfer. We insult each other about our respective countries, our sportsmen and our people. Of course it goes along the lines of something like; australia is the best because......., south africa is definitely the best because............., if it's so great there why come here?...........if australians weren't so lazy we wouldn't have to come and do all the work!...... Get the drift? We both like each other very much and respect each others backgrounds but it is all in fun and gives us something in common.

I hope this came out right and doesn't sound like we are bashing each other, but rather that we feel comfortable enough to joke about ourselves. I am this way with all the australians I have met and I am well liked by them and vice versa, so as Bob says if you are NOT insulted, take it as an insult.

[Capie]

Interestig read.

Although I am not living in Auss at present my trip there showed clearly to me that a general compassion for others existed amongst Australians. I liked it very much. Even more so because I encountered more than one person immediately knowing that I was from SA when I started speaking, and then always enquiring about our countryin a friendly and inquisitive manner.

What I also realized was that Aussies had a peculiarity about not wanting to feel inferior to others, not in any way whatsoever. The class system, which is ever present in SA amongst black/white and white/white also, appears to be foreign to Aussies. SA's on the other hand sort of expect to be the best, or at least better, because if you're not you will become a streetsweeper, as we were always told in school would happen. Maybe it is because of this attitude that SA's sometimes experience some hostility from Aussies. Much in the same way I would think as South Africans thinking that the Germans buying property in Cape Town is pushing up the property prices and making it difficult for them to acquire a home. The Germans on the other hand think that they are 'helping' a struggling counrty be going through the trouble of buying property here!?

[Dreamcatcher]

In Seoul the other expat women see the Australians as unfriendly, snobbish, rude , exclusive and obsessed with mixing with their own.

Hi there,

SS, this is unfortunately how I feel about some of the South African contingent in some places (in Aus). Some of them only mix with their few friends that meet their (SA) "class" standards. About time they realise the Aussies don't like that "class" thing.... Some others have the opposite attitude, and ONLY mix with Aussies. They are sooo embarrased at being grouped with you as a fellow South African, when they happen to come across you at an Aussie "Do".

We find most Aussies extremely friendly, and very tolerant - especialy when I ask them to speak slowly, because I find it hard to understand them The rude ones I have met, were mostly bussines people, like the estate agent, and the car salesman. They have no sense of competition, and made me feel they were doing me a huge favour in dealing with me.

A nice thing for us, is to get away from the "discrimination" in South Africa. My husband is a train driver, and in SA, he was "classed" as a Spoorie - thus dumb, uneducated and generally low class . Here, if he tells someone he is train driver, (and not an engineer or mechanic like everyone else ) the general reaction is "Wow! Really? Now that is interesting." And he has a dedicated audience for the rest of the evening.

One guy told us that they would have liked to have increases in wages, rather than having a foreigner imported into their workplace. Mean while, they don't know that the company didn't even pay for a thing for us to be in oz, so don't really know what their so upset about. And the firm is getting 6 more foreigners in in the next few months. Can you just imagine what this would do to the new people. With the six coming, the foreigners will be majority and then they will have to keep to them selves cause all of us are gonna stand together and stand up for ourselves.

Was worried for a while as everyone always talks about the positives about oz and never really about the negs. So people really need to get a balanced view of immigrating. Dis defnitief nie maanskyn en rose nie. Immigrasie is moeilik!!

Dedrei's husband

We are in a similar situation, we had to pay for almost everything ourselves. Problem is, they fired some long term contract workers, and employed six South Africans in their place. Boy were we unpopular. And don't think the guys stuck it out, and stood together, no way! Typically SA, they left each other to fend for themselves. Lucky for us, my hubby is a very easy going, non-judgemental kind of person, and after the Aussies got to know him better, they now get along famously! Good luck; Dedrei's husband

Discrimination is unfortunately a sad thing that you find everywhere, but somehow I think us South Africans have made a hobby of it?

Greetings,

dreamy

[DesertDaisy]

The Aussies I've met here in the UAE have been uniformally helpful and have been answering all sorts of strange questions from me!

The South Africans on the other hand..... My dh's team is made up entirely of South Africans. Some have been great, others not so great. There are nearly 40000 South Africans in the UAE, and you have a totally mixed bunch. Some are totally insular and mix only with other South Africans - generally these tend to be the people that are most unhappy here. They make no effort to join in or get to know the culture here. I guarantee that if you ask these people about discrimination, they will tell you they have experienced it here. They are wrong - they have simply not made the effort to get to know anyone else or even try to adapt to a very different environment.

[NZHigh]

Oh I suppose our cousins across the ditch aren't too bad.

[Willie]

Well I must say I have never been too Aus but hope to be there soon, the treatment I have had so far from Aussies have been outstanding. I worked with one or two in the past while commissioning plants and liked the direct way of saying what they think and my own personality should fit in nicely with that as I have been known to speak my mind when the need arouse I just think we tend to forget what we were and are facing in our own country A lot of people moved to Aus because they did not see a future for themselves and their kids in RSA because of how they were treated). I still have to see a posting that say that their future in Aus is seriously hampered by this perceived Aussie discrimination. Just think what we did with the poor pommies when they had to learn some AFRIKAANS (Al die verkeerde woorde en se goed) I do think it would be fair to expect some resistance initially but as soon as you proofed to them you are just as human and are not there to sponge on them they would tend to accept you for your friendship and your worth.

Just to put in perspective again for those who forgot what they left behind, My brother in law's son finished university about a year ago with his masters in electronic engineering with an average of 94% for his total average at university and have not been able to find work locally, twice another with far inferior qualifications were chosen as it always is a affirmative action position. My own son could not secure an apprenticeship(the main reason for our move) because of the same reason. If this is the level of "discrimination" I really do sympathise if not I think we should evaluate what we have and accept that we are or will soon be in Aus and are strangers even if we don't want to think so. Proof to them that we can stand and work beside them as well as any Assie without the need to brag or make anybody feel inadequate. At least they opened their borders and allowed us to give our kids the future they deserve and us the security and safety and support we might need in our old age.

I hope I did not stepped on any toes but if so many people from outside is coming into Aus I am sure many must have had some bad experiences with the non Aussies and don't we all remember the bad stuff first? It is up to US to make sure we proof to them we are acceptable and can be the best of friends even if we will never forsake the BOKKE.