Hello

[Duggen]

Bud... I am doing great a fitting in at work... this is exactly my point. I don't need you to tell me why I piss people off. Also don't get it wrong, I piss people off. Its because I'm impatient and direct. I am a serious A type personality, but as an Investment Banker this actually helps me fit in with the people I work with. Irrespective of where they come from, Investment bankers tend to share these traits. Like follows like I guess. Imagine that, my direct South African style helps me in Australia to fit in at my work place. Who would've thought. It must be because all South Africans are direct and all Australian are direct. That's the only explanation.

 

I guess I should tell all arriving South Africans to be more direct.... would you agree?

 

But chances are the reasons they people either fit in at work or don't fit in at work are not homogenous. Steve might not fit in because he doesn't watch AFL, where as Lindi might not fit in because she is generally a grumpy person. I wouldn't fit in at my wife's office (she works at an NGO where people are generally a lot more nice than my office), but trust me when I say the Australians at my office would hate working with my wife. There is no one size fits all solution.

 

In fact the Australian graduate who joined my previous organisation could really use your help, she really struggled. It was largely because she was lazy but maybe you could ride in on your white horse and explain to her how all millennials are lazy and should learn something about the real world. Other graduates didn't have that problem but lets not let a fact get in the way of a good stereotype.

Edited March 23, 2018 by Duggen

[ChrisH]

24 minutes ago, AussieMick said:

I had hoped to make this a two way street, but I can see that any attempt to show you that you could do better at fitting in at work is going to be met with accusations of bias, limited experience of the world, etc. 

Ah well. It was worth a try.

BTW, I currently hold first place in the Biltong making competition at work

 

So far you've pointed out that South Africans love their luxury brands, we do....  Though I personally don't find it necessary to rub it in anybody's faces.  Just on this, you have to remember that most brands left South Africa due to sanctions, except for the Germans who saw an opportunity.  Clearly, that worked out well for them!

 

I do have to agree with @Duggen here, and that is that industries attract a certain personality type.  Is it possible that the industry you work in attract a certain personality type and hence all the saffas you get exposed to is what has ultimately formed your perception of Saffas in general?  

 

You knew very well when you opened this thread that you would get a backlash, so don't be surprised when you get what you yourself predicted would happen.  Nobody likes having their culture/group/association criticized.

 

[SimpleSimon]

Hey @AussieMick I was just taking the piss. My apologies for offending you.

 

@Duggen and @jpokennedy I was very naughty as I knew I would be setting up AussieMick. Just my wicked Australian sense of humour.

 

But yes I do have an Audi convertible but it’s getting a bit long in the tooth now.

[TakeItOnTheChin]

When this post started I thought 'here we go, this is going turn into some unnecessary nonsense' and hoped I was going to be wrong. Some of you thought the same I am sure. But unfortunately it has turned into a bit of a dog show with many trying to either explain their worth to Australia or who South Africans are. Don't let someone push your button people, this forum is here for a reason, not to waste energy and time explaining to a random bloke behind a keyboard what we are about. Obviously he has a chip on his shoulder about Saffers. It's a crap post and does not serve any purpose, imho

[Eyebrow]

4 hours ago, AussieMick said:

BTW, I currently hold first place in the Biltong making competition at work

 

 

I wish I could make biltong...

I order mine online and get it expressed delivered regionally. And it is costing me and arm and a leg.

 

I have now lived in the city and regionally. And must admit the latter group of people have been the most accepting of us.

I personally get along better with the regional people as they seem to take themselves less seriously.

But what do I know...

[AussieMick]

https://ssafaris.co.za/easy-biltong-recipes/

Try the Hartman recipe on this page. Start with whole pepper corns and coriander seeds, toast the coriander in a dry skillet until they just change colour. I have a little adjustable spice grinder I bought especially for the job. I try to just crack the seeds into pieces rather than grind them to dust.

 

Biltong boxes have many designs. Mine is based on this. I use only a little 60mm fan as I want it to take at least 4 days to dry. It's a fine line though. dry it too fast and you get "case hardening" Too slow you get mould. Just right you get nice deep flavours. Don't drown it in the spices.

http://www.popularmechanics.co.za/how-to-make/make-your-own-biltong-dryer-in-an-afternoon/

Edited March 23, 2018 by AussieMick

[ottg]

8 hours ago, AussieMick said:

You are in demand because employers can hire your skills in without having to train.

 

Perhaps not - the article mention other reasons.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/south-african-engineers-world-class-andrew-mckune/

 

1 hour ago, AussieMick said:

Biltong boxes have many designs

 

Thanks for this link. Never made biltong here but now definitely on my to do list.

The next comment is with tongue in the cheek - perhaps need to get an electrician in for the electric wiring and safety aspects :-)

 

 

[AussieMick]

14 minutes ago, ottg said:

 

Perhaps not - the article mention other reasons.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/south-african-engineers-world-class-andrew-mckune/

Written by a South African?

 

16 minutes ago, ottg said:

Thanks for this link. Never made biltong here but now definitely on my to do list.

The next comment is with tongue in the cheek - perhaps need to get an electrician in for the electric wiring and safety aspects :-)

 

 

Low voltage - perfectly legal

[RedPanda]

Yea, I was reading this and thinking...some of you guys are just poking fun  

But South Africans as a group tend to have specific traits, some good, some less so. And the South Africans can say what they want, sometimes they're irritating. And the Aussies can say what they want, sometimes the way they've been doing things just hasn't caught up with the best solutions out there. The point is not to get angry about it, but to look at it and think about it, and then either decide: stuff it, I like it the way it is and I'll take the drawbacks, or Hmmm..perhaps I want to try something else. Just let each other live.

After listening to a lot of people and doing some reading of my own (from real books, that I borrow from my local library, that I absolutely love) I've reached the conclusion that it's probably a lack of understanding about where the other side is coming from. I think it's really hard for the average Australian to imagine the mindset needed to get on with life in South Africa. Living there you are constantly reserving a portion of your brain to handle safety: at a traffic light, is that guy too close to me, are they trying to box me in and hijack my car? is that pedestrian actually approaching casually to smash my window? Getting service at any state department, how many days of leave will this cost me going back to stand in a +2hr queue just to be told my documents are not in order (the requirements are not online, and compliance is at the whim of the person helping you). Having to check every deal you want to sign for the catch, cell phone data that disappears when you're not looking, penalties for paying a loan off early... Added to this, you can't really use your public spaces to relax, like parks, because they are not safe. So you live in little bubbles, your house, your friends' houses, the shopping mall... Many South Africans can tell you about the physical changes their bodies undergo after being in Australia for a few months and being without the high background level of cortisol. I've recently found out that two very different people I know have both commented to my husband that my driving is so much more confident than it used to be, and it surprised me. Then I realised, of course, I'm no longer constantly scared on the roads, so I think about where I'm going and I trust the other road users to follow the rules(which they mostly do), and it makes quite a difference to the outcome.

And from my Australian friends I have learnt that South Africans don't understand how important interpersonal relationships are to them, and in short how important it is to be empathetic and considerate of each other. That nature is at worst annoying (like possums eating all your new plants) but at best it's amazing, and should be cherished and cared for. Also, Australians have a history of people coming from other places (England) with little understanding of local conditions, and thinking they know better and trying to 'fix' stuff, while telling them they are utter bumpkins. South Africans also don't understand just how much of a lasting impact it's made on the way that Australian society works that they started off as a penal colony where England just dumped everyone they didn't want. And although things might have been clearly defined initially, after a while most of those people had served their time and then needed to become part of the regular part of society. So a lot of the people who were perfectly respectable public figures had a deep seated dislike of anyone 'lording it' over them. The bush doesn't care what your title is, if you do something stupid you'll end up paying for it, so the ones who do well are respected for their skill/hard work. This obviously became a national attitude.

Personally, I think Australia's flat society is very appealing. I've always felt an idea should be tried on its own merit, not based on who voiced it.

Anyway, whenever things are said about a group there are bound to be individuals to whom those things don't apply. Don't get offended, think about it, and if the shoe doesn't fit, just give it back (don't throw it at the person's head).  

So @AussieMick, South Africa has got an animal called a badger that raids bee's nests for honey, closest thing I've seen in Australia is a wombat. Bottom line: keep going, but don't be nasty and bring a thick skin  you'll be fine.

Same goes for the rest of the forumites, play nice.

[SimpleSimon]

Yeah, I’ve been thinking about this stream and I’m enjoying it. On the flip side, based on my experience of working with maybe a 100 decent sized companies in Oz, @AussieMick, you don’t fit the mould of an average “real” Australian. I’m used to real Australians using dry humour to devastating effect. I expected to have the piss taken out of me mercilessly when I made some of my comments. I think you need to pull up your Australianess socks otherwise we’ll have to send you to South Africa for training.

Edited March 24, 2018 by RYLC

[Tntaglia]

On 3/22/2018 at 3:20 PM, AussieMick said:

Now we get to the interesting stuff. It amazes me that people who want to move to Australia  immigrate to Sydney or Melbourne. More than 1/3 of Sydney's population was born elsewhere. Same for Melbourne. They are also the two most expensive cities to live in Australia. If you live in either, you haven't really assimilated. You haven't met any real Aussies yet. 

 

 

Lots of good responses on this thread already. I want to respond to this bit in particular. Most people on this forum go to Oz on a 189/190/457 visa, which means you need to have an occupation on the skills list. Guess where the jobs are? Sydney and Melbourne. I am an actuary, can you point out to me the job opportunities available in rural areas where I would have the opportunity to meet "real" Australians?

[AussieMick]

18 hours ago, SimpleSimon said:

Yeah, I’ve been thinking about this stream and I’m enjoying it. On the flip side, based on my experience of working with maybe a 100 decent sized companies in Oz, @AussieMick, you don’t fit the mould of an average “real” Australian. I’m used to real Australians using dry humour to devastating effect. I expected to have the piss taken out of me mercilessly when I made some of my comments. I think you need to pull up your Australianess socks otherwise we’ll have to send you to South Africa for training.

 

 Maybe that does make me a real Aussie - I still believe in the "fair go".

 

Edited March 25, 2018 by AussieMick

[ottg]

Very interesting points. I want to split your very interesting comment in two part:

20 minutes ago, AussieMick said:

give Saffers a chance before they write them off

Under what circumstance would that happen? Can you be specific?

How quickly would that happen?

Why would others then seems to be intolerant of differences?

 

20 minutes ago, AussieMick said:

Unlike many of my colleagues, I seek to understand you

I would say to seek to understand should be common courtesy but also a good attribute for leadership. We need to dive deeper. Then why would others not do that?

Is that culture specific, or rather more upbringing specific as these two things are non related actually?

 

Now this brings me to a another thought around the Australian competitiveness report but would first like to read your responses.

 

[AussieMick]

1 hour ago, ottg said:

Very interesting points. I want to split your very interesting comment in two part:

Under what circumstance would that happen? Can you be specific?

How quickly would that happen?

Why would others then seems to be intolerant of differences?.

 

I'll try. Firstly, one must understand that a lot of Australian companies run very lean.

 

 

Edited March 25, 2018 by AussieMick

[AussieMick]

1 hour ago, ottg said:

I would say to seek to understand should be common courtesy but also a good attribute for leadership. We need to dive deeper. Then why would others not do that?

Is that culture specific, or rather more upbringing specific as these two things are non related actually?

 

Now this brings me to a another thought around the Australian competitiveness report but would first like to read your responses.

 

Of course it is common courtesy. Which is why I do it  - I'm very common.

Edited March 25, 2018 by AussieMick

[RYLC]

Sounds like you're describing my Saffa now Aussie brother in law. Management LOVE him because he gets projects finished on time and on budget but staff and contractors are much less complimentary about him and I would NOT want to work with him. He can be abrasive/aggressive/demanding to get things done but that's what they hired him to do.  His mindset is that it's best to keep management happy because they pay the salaries, give the promotions etc.  oh and he has an Aussie wife so his ways seem to working for him anyway.  I thought it odd but she seems to enjoy being the support person. Different strokes I guess...

Edited March 25, 2018 by RYLC

[ottg]

@AussieMick So what happened to your post.

 

5 hours ago, AussieMick said:

I'll try. Firstly, one must understand that a lot of Australian companies run very lean.

 

You went back to your initial reply and deleted 90% of it. Now you haven't answered any of the questions. Why? as it gave me some food for thought. 

I wont repeat it as there must be a reason why you did remove it. However, looking at @RYLC response it seems as if she was replying to those comments before you removed them. Hmm.... interesting.

[SimpleSimon]

200,000 South Africans in Australia, most of us highly qualified and experienced in order to live in the country. Different personalities, values, aspirations stages of life within this group. You cannot take a broad brush and say “all South Africans are ......”.

 

Australia pushed hard for South Africa to unban the ANC and release Nelson Mandela. Now that the country is crashing, Australia is reaping the rewards of their efforts to bring about change in the country. The politicians like Bob Hawke and Peter Beattie have patted themselves on the back about South Africa’s transition to democracy but are quiet about endemic corruption and racism against whites in the country.

 

i can understand that it must be very scary for average Australians to watch the rapid transformation as highly skilled no nonsense operators come in and change the fabric of society. Similar watching Chinese developers erecting high rise apartment blocks in suburbs is unsettling to say the least.

 

However these are the fruits of decisions made by Keating and Howard governments in the 90’s. It’s easy to blame a minority group (like Jews in prewar Europe) but the reality is that if we want to continue to be prosperous and healthy, we can’t take on the benefits without accommodating some things that we don’t like.

Edited March 25, 2018 by SimpleSimon

[funtobeaussiechick]

Hey Aussie Mick, I am enjoying what you are saying and can so relate. I have been here more than 10 years now and love Aussies. I dont go out of my way to try and meet Saffas. I think we should be less arrogant, get a sense of humour, not be so serious, nobody cares how we live , or what car we drive and we need to get over ourselves that we are somehow superior and we will just come to Aus and show them how to do it. I hope I have not rubbed up any of my Saffa mates the wrong way but after all we are blessed to be here and should try and fit in as best as we can and not try take over. Slowly at work we can move mountains and gain respect by doing a good job without trying to be the superstar.  Aussies will respect you for being a good workmate, being helpful when the chips are down and be humble. Dont try and be arrogant, it will get you nowhere, sigh, a lot of Saffas need to learn a lot

[Riekie]

I'm one of 3 South Africans in a melting pot of cultures from about 23 countries in our small staff of 30.  They love us!  They enjoy our humour, our way of making light of situations, our ability to get things done, our willingness to wash the floor or get under a desk to fix up a cable even though it is not even remotely our jobs, our honesty (saying things that need saying), our big mouths (really!) Equally so, we love being in such a cultural environment and embrace the quirks and intricacies of people from different backgrounds and often with a very different way of conduct.  I guess that is the secret:  being yourself with the same respect and acceptance of others.  

 

When we arrived in Australia all those years ago, we initially gravitated towards fellow South Africans for obvious reasons (companionship, shared background, the ability to speak our own language, tell jokes that makes sense...) but we soon realised that South Africans in general are still trying to keep up with the Joneses.  Almost everytime we met a new South African we were put through the grill:  where do you live, do you rent or did you buy, where do your kids go to school, what do you do, where do you work...? We still have South African friends - amazing friends, some of whom we met during those early days and who have the same values and outlook as us - but we do not go to South African gatherings any longer for that reason.  I think that is also the part of us that Australians and people of other cultures find unpleasant. 

 

It takes a while for Australia to open our eyes to the real important things in life and until then, we can be pretty hard to like. 😎

 

 

 

 

[SimpleSimon]

Hah, True blue dinky die Aussies also like their luxuries.

Yesterday I was sitting at a Balmoral beach cafe with my mate, 4th generation Aussie. He asked me how my Audi is going, I asked about his Alfa.

Just then our heads swivelled 180 degrees in unison. Not a pretty girl, but a really good looking Lotus cruised by.

[Bonny]

@AussieMick did you give up on us already? Some of the replies to your comments were downright rude and abrasive, and proved exactly why South Africans get peoples’ hackles up.

 

Looking back I’m pretty sure I was one of the more annoying types, but after 11 years here I’ve mellowed and got over myself. Now I actively dislike hearing my own accent (I’m talking to you, Joel Stransky) and steer clear of most Saffers. Which is strangely difficult. It’s only Thursday and I’ve bumped into at least 6 or 7 this week already. Damn annoying, actually. If I wanted to fall over South Africans in every single shop I go into, I would have stayed in Pretoria.

 

Funny bit is my hubby & I drive a BMW and Amarok respectively 😂 . Seems it’s not that easy to escape one’s roots!

Edited June 28, 2018 by Bonny

[SimpleSimon]

Good debate though.

[RedPanda]

I think he left.

[Bonny]

4 hours ago, RedPanda said:

I think he left.

What South Africans underestimate (imho) is how polite Australians are.