Hello

[AussieMick]

Hi,

My name is Mick and I'm half expecting to get kicked off this forum pretty soon.

After all, I'm a Skippy. Never lived in SA.

I started reading this forum a while ago. The reason is that over the last decade I have been working with an ever increasing number of SA expats and, having discovered that Seth Efricans are mostly good to socialise with and not so good to work with, I started looking to see if I could understand you.

I finally joined as I have been reading many posts that I'd love to respond to.

I hope to start making a contribution soon.

Regards,

Mick

 

[TakeItOnTheChin]

All good AussieMick, welcome

 

So tell us why you feel they're not so good to work with?

Edited March 16, 2018 by TakeItOnTheChin

[ChrisH]

LOL this should be interesting 

[Laleesa]

lets play nicely. 

 

[RedPanda]

Well, provided you 'play nicely' and your replies actually contribute to the forum, it would be great to have you. Love to hear it from the other side.

And of course I'm also curious why you don't like working with South Africans  

[Mara]

@AussieMick

Welcome to the forum, trust you will learn more about South Africans here, but I doubt that... most of them are pretty stressed out, most of the time, as migration is not a thing to be taken lightly.

So yes, please tell us why you think they are not great to work with?

[AussieMick]

On 3/17/2018 at 11:08 AM, Mara said:

@AussieMick

Welcome to the forum, trust you will learn more about South Africans here, but I doubt that... most of them are pretty stressed out, most of the time, as migration is not a thing to be taken lightly.

Yes I am coming to understand that. In fact I am beginning to see Saffers as refugees more than anything else.

As I go along and see commentary that points to the things that annoy us Aussies, I'll point them out. I'll try not to be offensive when I do it, but I will also try to be honest.

[ottg]

@AussieMick Welcome! Perhaps to kickstart this chat you can comment if the following commentary still holds water.

Many, many years ago I asked a dear Assie friend of me, well experienced, respected and now in semi-retirement, to comment on how we as South Africans can best integrate within the Aussie business culture. Many of the commentaries were picked up from his feedback and comments.

(Note I don't maintain those pages anymore as its only an archive)

https://web.archive.org/web/20100513184608/http://www.perth-sa-migrant-support.com.au:80/business-culture.php

Will be great to hear from you!

[AussieMick]

It's pretty close, especially the bit about hierarchies existing for clarity of decision making authority, not status.

Some Aussies carry the whole egalitarian thing to extremely disrespectful lengths.

However, most do it because that simply is the Australian way. I'm on the lowest rung of the ladder as far as supervisory staff are concerned in my multinational company and when I was recently asked to show our Europe based CEO around our facility, the introduction and subsequent conversations were on a first-name basis. He understood it.

Some may take it as disrespectful, but it is not intended that way. Never expect to be called Mr xxxxxxxx. It will not happen.

It promotes a certain regard that means people do things not because they are paid to, but because they like and respect the person above them.

Edited March 19, 2018 by AussieMick

[TamTam]

Thanks @AussieMick - it's really helpful to read this. I've seen the same with European culture - and I like it - you don't have to sir this and ma'am that.

I really like what you said in your last sentence.

[SimpleSimon]

On 3/19/2018 at 8:33 PM, AussieMick said:

It promotes a certain regard that means people do things not because they are paid to, but because they like and respect the person above them.

Actually, I think Australians (and that includes ex-Saffers, ex-Indians, ex-Chinese, ex-British, ex-Americans) do things because they have great pride in their work, like to be helpful to colleagues and clients/customers, want to do the right thing and want to be respected for their abilities. They do this irrespective of whether they have a healthy dis/respect for their boss. On the other hand, they will happily mutter to each other about the company, boss and colleagues.

Now that I come to think about it, in quite a few workplaces I inhabit, Aussies of >2 generations heritage are a very rare breed. We've all assimilated together.

[AussieMick]

2 hours ago, SimpleSimon said:

Now that I come to think about it, in quite a few workplaces I inhabit, Aussies of >2 generations heritage are a very rare breed. We've all assimilated together.

Now we get to the interesting stuff. It amazes me that people who want to move to Australia  immigrate to Sydney or Melbourne. More than 1/3 of Sydney's population was born elsewhere. Same for Melbourne. They are also the two most expensive cities to live in Australia. If you live in either, you haven't really assimilated. You haven't met any real Aussies yet. 

 

 

Edited March 22, 2018 by AussieMick

[TamLovesRic]

@AussieMick - you could say the same about the population and expense of New York and London 

 

[SimpleSimon]

3 hours ago, AussieMick said:

You haven't met any real Aussies yet. 

I have good friends who have been > 4 generations in this wonderful country. One claims her forebears came out as convicts.

 

Like me, they vote, have BBQ’s on weekends, buy groceries, pay taxes, shout at other motorists, worry about whether their kids can afford houses, mutter about the neighbours mowing the lawn on Sunday afternoon, mutter about their spouses, mutter about our politicians. Like me they can only remember the first verse of the Australian national anthem and think the Australian cricket team is a bunch of wh*nkers.

 

I have other friends who claim their forebears have been on this land for 60,000 years. Are you one of them @AussieMick, because if you are, I salute you as being a “real Australian”.

Edited March 22, 2018 by SimpleSimon

[FromDurbs]

I had an interesting Australian experience last week.  We had a very important visitor at work.  He spent a sabbatical here, many years ago, and have kept in touch with the staff here.  There was quite a lot of preparation done for his visit and it was obvious that they all respected him a lot and was in awe of his work.  (He is from the UK.)  He did a major talk to a large audience and was heckled from beginning to end.  It started in the introduction, which highlighted his achievements, but also teased him about it.  For example, they mentioned that one of his publications had 1000 citations, but xx in the audience has 3000, etc.  It was fun, and funny and people seemed to enjoy it.  But I thought it was a bit much and something like this would not have been so relentless in South Africa.  I also think people in South Africa might have been scared to offend.   I mentioned this to a colleague, who responded "Well, we know him.  We would not have done this to someone we dont know.  And we know he can take it". 

[AussieMick]

3 hours ago, SimpleSimon said:

I have good friends who have been > 4 generations in this wonderful country. One claims her forebears came out as convicts.

 

Like me, they vote, have BBQ’s on weekends, buy groceries, pay taxes, shout at other motorists, worry about whether their kids can afford houses, mutter about the neighbours mowing the lawn on Sunday afternoon, mutter about their spouses, mutter about our politicians. Like me they can only remember the first verse of the Australian national anthem and think the Australian cricket team is a bunch of wh*nkers.

 

I have other friends who claim their forebears have been on this land for 60,000 years. Are you one of them @AussieMick, because if you are, I salute you as being a “real Australian”.

I'm about 8th generation if I count correctly. Anyway, my point is that 1/3 of Sydney-siders and Melburnians are recent immigrants who huddle together in enclaves in two very large cities.

I've got a mate who came to this country as a babe in arms. He grew up in a suburb in Melbourne that was basically a Hungarian enclave. He still (50 years later) resents the fact that he couldn't speak any English at all until he was 9 years of age (after 8 years in the country). You ought to hear his opinions on assimilation and multi-culturalism.

 

The other 2/3 of Sydney-siders and Melburnians think that Australia ends at the Great Dividing Range. They insist on staying in the two most expensive cities in the country and wonder why they can't afford the housing. They get little sympathy from the rest of us who are out on this wide brown land actually producing things while they work in their"service industry" and "public service" jobs.

Edited March 22, 2018 by AussieMick

[SimpleSimon]

Actually, to a lot of my South African friends, the great dividing range starts at Parramatta. Between Parramatta and the Blue Mountains is a wasteland that should only be viewed  from the car window while driving very quickly past on the Freeway.

 

But I'm sure you agree that the only way to experience the Nullabour is from 10 kms up and at 1,000 km per hour. And the rest of Australia's center dust bowl you are  more than welcome to. I think we should build a big canal from Carpentaria to Port Augusta so that we bring moisture into the middle and start greening it.

 

I spoke to John Alexander the other day. He wants to build a high speed rail from Melbourne to Brisbane. Then Newcastle will be 30 minutes away from Sydney CBD and people can communicate from small towns into the city. Great vision. We could use some of Australia's natural uranium resources in a nuclear reactor to power the network and then we'd gettthis country ticking the way it should be.

[AussieMick]

10 hours ago, SimpleSimon said:

Actually, to a lot of my South African friends, the great dividing range starts at Parramatta. Between Parramatta and the Blue Mountains is a wasteland that should only be viewed  from the car window while driving very quickly past on the Freeway.

 

But I'm sure you agree that the only way to experience the Nullabour is from 10 kms up and at 1,000 km per hour. And the rest of Australia's center dust bowl you are  more than welcome to. I think we should build a big canal from Carpentaria to Port Augusta so that we bring moisture into the middle and start greening it.

 

I spoke to John Alexander the other day. He wants to build a high speed rail from Melbourne to Brisbane. Then Newcastle will be 30 minutes away from Sydney CBD and people can communicate from small towns into the city. Great vision. We could use some of Australia's natural uranium resources in a nuclear reactor to power the network and then we'd gettthis country ticking the way it should be.

Dammit I nearly spit my coffee on the screen!  

Is this meant to be click bait?

 

Let's start with the Nullarbor - THOU SHALT NOT FLY OVER THE NULLARBOR - you absolutely must drive it at least once in your life.

Load up the wife, kids, spares, (don't forget the water) and drive it. You'll dodge wombats, roos, camels, donkeys, brumbies, snakes, goannas, watch whales at the head of the bight, etc. You might have to bypass a corroboree, like we did. Just watch out for the Highway Patrol at Madura.

After you do the Nullarbor, come back to Port Augusta and do the drive to Darwin. You'll be pleasantly surprised at just how green the red centre can be.

 

What's this "get this country ticking the way it should be" business? You are starting to touch on the reasons Saffers are a pain to work with.

Edited March 22, 2018 by AussieMick

[SimpleSimon]

I dunno. Driving my Audi convertible through a dessert doesn’t seem wise. It’s hard enough to keep it clean on the city roads. And driving an old 4 wheel drive or bakkie, sorry Ute, is just not my style. I saw enough of that sort of landscape driving through the Karoo and that was at 180 km/h. Maybe when I’m long retired and have 4 days to spend just driving.

 

Not just Saffers but Chinese, Japanese, Koreans happily building high speed rail lines, cities, factories, nuclear power stations before its even got to the planning stage in Australia. We really are a bunch of ineffective NIMBYs.

[AussieMick]

Several points in your last post that illustrate why Saffers are not very popular in Oz workplaces.

I'll point out a couple.

 

The speed limits in Oz are 100 or 110 except in the Northern Territory.

 

Speaking of driving through a desert at 180 km/hr illustrates one of the things that concerns us people who work with molten metal - Saffers tend to rush in with scant regard for safety rules that we've formulated over decades to help us stay alive. And will not listen when advised that they are putting themselves and others in danger.

 

Audi convertible - Saffers must always mention they have the most expensive, most upmarket vehicle. This is absolutely universal in our industry. It's some sort of status thing - what other inadequacy are you all compensating for?

Ah why do you like your Ranger? - I've got an Amorok.

What you doing riding that Harley, Suzuki, Yamaha? I've got a BMW.

 

As for high speed rail and nuclear power stations, why? So we can all cram into one little bit of the east coast? This another problem with Saffers, especially in the work environment. I note you've been here quite a while, but so many people just off the plane want to change everything about the workplace as soon as they get here. The instant reaction from Aussies - if you don't like it why did you come?

 

Building more cities so as to accommodate even more people? You do realise this country will struggle to support an increased population? 

 

Edited March 22, 2018 by AussieMick

[Duggen]

Lol the amount of generalisations made is truly amazing.

 

I also find it quite interesting that you have this view that Saffers are universally unpopular in the Australia workplace. I reckon your judgement is pretty skewed... I haven't been here all that long but have noticed that us hugely unpopular South Africans seem to be pretty in demand. I just joined a new organisation and at my induction 25 of the 50 odd new starters were South Africans. I also personally know 6 South Africans who were directly hired from South Africa with attractive financial packages etc to move to Australia. I'm just trying to reconcile how if we are so hated in the work place how we seem to be getting hired so easily?

 

 

[AussieMick]

I'm not suggesting employers don't like you. Neither do your colleagues dislike you. I did not use the expression "universally unpopular", nor "hugely unpopular". Nor did I say you were "hated".

I simply said you aren't very popular.

You are in demand because employers can hire your skills in without having to train.

[jpokennedy]

18 minutes ago, AussieMick said:

I'm not suggesting employers don't like you. Neither do your colleagues dislike you. I did not use the expression "universally unpopular", nor "hugely unpopular". Nor did I say you were "hated".

I simply said you aren't very popular.

You are in demand because employers can hire your skills in without having to train.

 

What a load of ....

 

[Duggen]

The rest of your post suggests your opinion, "Saffers must always mention they ", "Saffers tend to rush in with scant regard for safety rules", "This another problem with Saffers, especially in the work environment", "but so many people just off the plane want to change everything about the workplace as soon as they get here. The instant reaction from Aussies - if you don't like it why did you come?"

 

Also this whole idea that I could be hired instead of training an Australian is rubbish.... The choice between hiring someone like myself or an Australian is across a similar skill level and pay level. I didn't replace atraining opportunity. In fact part of my job is to train two of the graduates in my organisation with my experience.... much like if I were Australian. I was hired (as an Australian would be hired) because of my international experience across some of the most respected institutions in the field in which I work.

 

Your view is based on your limited experience of the world, which you then interpolate to be representative of a whole population group. Not only is this flawed on the general level (ones experience is not representative of a whole population group) but also fails to take into account any idiosyncrasies with in that population group. For example as a fairly young white English speaking South African born in Johannesburg, my approach to things is completely different to a 45 year old white Afrikaans South African from a farm or a Indian South African from Durban. The same applies to any population group, I know many Australians, but can't say all Australians are chilled out surfers because 5 of the Australians I met are chilled out surfers.

 

I hope you have some ability to see this, but (and to do exactly what you are doing) my experience with people who make generalised statements in the manner you do are usually incapable of understanding this.

[AussieMick]

I surrender. I looked around in an effort to understand you, but I see it isn't possible to have reasoned discussion.

The industry I work in takes people from all walks of life.

 

I've worked with

Indian South Africans, English and Afrikaans South Africans,

White and Black Zimbabweans,

Sudanese,

Kenyan, Bangladeshi and Moroccan Muslims

Philipino Christians,

Chinese, Brazilians, French (lovely people - how do they do that Gallic shrug? is it in the DNA?)

Swiss, Italians, Greeks, Russians, Bulgarians, Hungarians

Germans, Cubans, Maoris, Kiwis,  

You name it, I've probably worked with them.

Mind you was only thinking the other day that I cannot for the life of me remember ever knowingly working with a Jewish person.

 

I had hoped to make this a two way street, but I can see that any attempt to show you that you could do better at fitting in at work is going to be met with accusations of bias, limited experience of the world, etc. 

Ah well. It was worth a try.

BTW, I currently hold first place in the Biltong making competition at work

Cheers,

Mick