Is Future For South Afrcia Realy That Bad?

[Eto]

Hi All,

Just thought that I should bounce this off everyone and see what reaction I get, as I see a very different picture when comparing what I read in the news versus what I experience on a daily basis out in the streets of Port Elizabeth.

In most cases I am greeted with smiles when I walk the streets or go shopping. The workplace is very similar as well from tea lady to management and in general I get the feeling that many are trying to make it work even when the odds are against us.

Shopping centres are popping up all around us with the biggest and latest one (Baywest) that opened yesterday. Stunning ctr and probably best compared with Canal Walk in Cape Town I guess.

Yes we all know about load shedding, municipalities that are broke due to corruption, quality of water and schooling on a down, BBBEEEEEEEEE..... gees it sounds like I already answered my own question . However, I always get that feeling that things could actually work and turn out for the better in the long run.

Racing through my mind at present is the question.....do I sit it out in RSA and spend the time with my family and friends or do we pack and leave and start a new life in Australia? This means no more time with family and we are all very aware of how important this becomes once the grand kids arrive, once our parents are old and need help.

Not sure if anybody agrees, but it would be great to hear what your thoughts are.

Many thanks.

Eto

[Orphan]

Is Future For South Afrcia Realy That Bad?

[SurferMan]

Hi Eto,

My 50 cents.

A new mall is not a sign of prosperity in my view, I would cast my decision net wider than that.

1. Load shedding, getting owrse and owrse. About to sign SA's life away with a secret trillion Rand nuclear deal, which take >10 years to come on line and have a good history of going 2-3 times over budget.
2. Water crisis, it's coming if not there yet.
3. Crime, still well out of any semblance of control.
4. Nepotism and corruption. People getting off scott free.
5. Pamdozi mine. Billions scammed and fast ass Khulubuse Zuma sits on the poor and destitute.
6. Jiba, NPA/Zuma, spy tapes. Mdluli and Co.
7. Eskon, SAA, SARS, SABC, SANDF, and and and the list goes on.
8. Most bloated and biggest Cabinet in the world. Say no more. Fat ass pollies in Parliament.
9. SANRAL. Lying and conniving.
10. Highest per capita spend in the world on education, dumbest students as a result. And let me be clear, it aint the students who are not smart, it's SASCO, SADTU etc et al that stuff it up! No textbooks for years.
11. Marikana, killing our own to protect profits.
12. Andries Tatanie, not a single cop sacked or jailed, despite being caught on film murdering him in cold blood.
13. Fisheries, caught in monster scandal, nobody convicted.
14. Slide of the Rand, since 1994 it has been on the way down.
15. Strikes.
16. Continous looting and "dimands" for stuff, all for free.
17. Xenophobia. Say no more, its bloody racism, i wish people would call it waht it is!
18. BBBEEE. Why can't I have a company and decide who the heck owns it? It's mine, i built it up with my blood, sweat, money and tears. Why am I forced to give it away?
19. Land expropriation. If you bought it fair and square, why can it is taken away?
20. Pet peeve - SABC TV licence. FFS, can anyone here honestly say they watch that propaganda crap? Why can't I have a TV and watch movies?
21. The Zulu king/bigot/Malema/SACP/AZAPO can say Kill the Boer but if any witou says kill the black dude, there would be an uproar.
22. Thuli bashing has become a national sport, and about the only exercise the fat ass pollies get in Parly.
23. Jamming of journalists when the heat gets too much. Dont tell me that was not ordered from on high...

What gets to me is the lack of accountability.

There are good things and good people in SA, I know we have all lived there. But the strikes are getting worse and come next year, it will just keep getting more and more violent.

Sorry, I'll get off my soapbox now. :blush-anim-cl: :boxing:

But South Africa does not have a good story to tell. They had a golden chance to exploit minerals and natrual wealth to build up a vibrant and successful society. Instead they play the race card as though all 52 cards were racism. It's never Governments fault, but always some "third force" or scary Western boogeyman to blame, or white farmers, or foreigners et al.

Aus has issues, I promise you. here in WA, our own Barney has peed our iron ore fortunes into the wind and continues to put his head in the sand. We had to borrow $8 billion just to make it to fin. year end. So we too have Darwin nominees by the dozen. But as least if I call the cops they will come, very soon. If I call the council, I will get through AND attended to. In the same day. It works and everyone pays their fair share, mostly. (Maccas, Google, Apple, dont yet but will soon!) We have pollies who sniff seats in Parliament, crash their cars and get away with it for months.

There is no perfect society, but poor SA is getting hammered left, right and centre. And by the very supposed saviours of "the people" An oxymoron if I ever saw one. .The cherry on the cake for me, the ANC toyi-toying against Eskons decision to fit pre-paid meters. Err, Eskon is controlled and run by THE ANC. So the ANC is demonstrating against itself? WTF?

You can't make this stuff up.

LOL, Im done venting. have a great weekend!

[monsta]

Hey,

You have a great positive attitude!

What made me leave was the number of people who I spoke to which were close to retirement. The Rand is worth a third of what it once was. That really effects your retirement savings.

It made me realize that any one of those issues you mentioned could become a very serious problem in my life.

For example, what do you do about retirement savings? You look to buy a property and at nearly every property you look at is "in an unsafe neighborhood". Then you look at the prices of the " safe" neighborhoods and they are through the roof. So, you throw all your cash into a good suburb, only to find in 5 years that the criminals have moved in and your property isn't worth much.

I guess what I am saying is.. Its hard to plan your life when there is so much change going on.

At the end if the day, its the governments job to make sure there is enough safe housing for all sectors of the population. But that's impossible when only 20% of the population are actually paying taxes.

What can they do? Implement an apartheid type system to ensure only the tax payers can sleep safe at night?

The problems in RSA run deeper than just an incompetent ANC...

Edited May 22, 2015 by monsta

[Eto]

thanks Surferman and monsta for your honest and valid points listed

in news24 this morning I read that NUMSA will be asking for an 84% increase in min. wages . Can see a very long strike coming up next year

Edited May 22, 2015 by Eto

[Nev]

Yea, my thoughts are that there are good people who are trying to make it work, but...

Every year it gets a bit worse, this year the crime, corruption, electricity situation was worse than last year, and worse than the year before ...

If you could see improvement then it may be worth sticking it out, but there is none just a steady decline,

And you can't be sure that there will always be the opportunity to get into Auz, world events happen and economies change and you may find you waited yourself out of the possibility of a visa.

Get here as fast as you can, get your citizenship, and as un-lightly as it is, if you then want to go spend a few years in SA, you can, but once you have experienced the freedom of living here going back to living in compounds is just not going to happen

[Jos]

Just my five cents... I'm currently fighting hard to get my PR visa. (had a hiccup with my son's health requirements, but that is a whole other story... and thread) Still living in RSA, I see so many positives everyday, just as you do. There is so much to appreciate in this beautiful country of ours, despite all the many negatives. At the end of the day, I am sacrificing my happy little comfortable bubble to try start a new life in an unknown country, not for myself, but for my children. If you have children, or are even considering children, try make the move. Think about their future in SA, once you are long gone. Does it seem as bright?

All I know, is once I make it to Australia, if it happens, I will NEVER list all the negatives about RSA, as it has been good to me. I will always encourage people to visit this country. Whether we like it or not, SA has shaped the people we are. Always be proud of your roots, don't wallow in the negative aspects, as it just makes you seem like a bitter expat who was forced to move. If you move, love your old country and love your new one just as much.

Edited May 22, 2015 by JosOzBound

[SurferMan]

@ETO, the sods must be lazy or it was a typo, should have been 184%. PMSL.

@ Nev, mate you nail it like Prost on a corner.

@ JozozBound....hmmm, yes and no mate. I do list the negatives, as I did the ones for Aus. Granted there are less in Aus and the intensity (read irritation/risk to life) are way less, Aus has it's ":censored:". I also tell people to visit SA, but my advice is strict, based on my actual experience in living in an area etc.

SA has shaped us all, be it good or bad and there is nobody here that will deny that. But you also need to acknowledge that some of the "shaping" has caused us to move, inlcuding you.

So I will go as far to say I do not wallow in the negative aspects, but I do see them enough times in the local SA media to easily justify my move. But on the other hand I never actually needed that, my background in intelligence allowed me to see very far into the future. That view scared the poop out of me more than 10 years ago, and guess what, I nailed the forecast almost 100% on all the key items I called it on.

No I am no hero on foreasting. Funny though, there was a lady who drove us to the airport the day we left SA, and I told her some stats that she never knew....She told me she drives Saffers leaving for Aus/Canada/US etc daily. When I finished telling her my forecast, she sighed and said, she will stay until she can't anymore.

Having paid her, I thought no more. Fast forward 3 years, get an email...from XXX "My sons have all left for Aus/US, can you advise how to leave...?"

Does that make me the Oracle of SA?

No.

All it does is confirm what so many of us do here, and that is question the wisdom of staying in SA.

Yes I am biased.

[Jos]

@Surferman: I agree with you 100%. Sorry, I can see now how my post might have seemed like it was directed at your response, didn't intend that.

I suppose, at the end of the day, it's just going with your gut as opposed to your heart. Your heart will always drag you towards the familiarity of home and familt, what you have loved your whole life. Your gut (along with your brain) sees that the warning signs are too glaring to ignore, and that making the move is the right thing to do.

[Mara]

I am still amazed how 22 years after the change in government, that, considering how far the incompetence of government has dragged the country down, people still tend to believe that South Africa will come right! It makes me wonder where the magic wand is and who is going to wave it!

All you really have to do is to look at the state of the rest of Africa, where many countries have been independent for a lot longer than RSA, and all of them appear to be on a downward slide, into nowhere.

In my case, when I look back over our lives in South Africa, there are many good memories, but when I look at the life we now lead in Australia, then I give thanks that we have the opportunity of living and growing old here!

[FairGo]

We are doing it for our child. If we don't do it, he might one day leave us behind... and that would be much worse for me.

I agree on not dwelling on the past and problems of SA once you are in Australia. It is a new beginning and rather use the time to learn more about Oz and make it your new home than focusing on issues that does not affect you anymore. It may be easy for me to say now, but that is the attitude I am going with...even if I have to fake it, till I make it.

I do not think that Oz will ever truly feel like home to me, but I want my son to feel that way and that is why I want to emigrate now while he is still young. I think the next 10 years, we could easily still live a good and comfortable life, but my son may not in years to come.

[springmielie]

I'm following all your journeys and think all of you are very courageous to leave all and everything behind for a better future for your family

My youngest was offered a job on a 457 visa straight out of university and it was a no brainer for her not to go. Fast forward two years later... she met her future husband (a boytjie from Gauteng, hehe), she can now apply for PR and everything just fell into place for her. She did not experience anything bad in South Africa, but the opportunity was just too great to miss.

Of our other two kids the oldest does not have the right skills to leave (he just landed a great job with a millwright apprenticeship, so maybe in 4 years time he'll decide differently) and my other daughter and her husband are very happy and don't want to leave. So we're on the other side of the coin, we have to make the best of what we have left here in good old RSA. Just had two and half hours of forced meditation

[SurferMan]

JozozBound,

Nah mate, it's all good. No harm no foul!! You have a view just the same as I have. Whats sets this forum out for me from others is the maturity and level of intellectualism of forumites. You can have a robust debate and opposing views here and still be mates. :hug:

@Mara, you had me in stiches with the wand remark! I also stand in amazement at how people watch the cookie crumbling but still think it's going to improve. Definition of madness, doing the same thing over and expecting different results. The ANC are simply looting and pillaging, and just blame anyone but themselves.

For those who stay, man you are brave. Sorry to hear about your situation Springmealie.

[Mara]

@ Springmielie

Like Surferman, I feel for those that remain in RSA. I have two elderly sisters in Jhb, about whom I worry on a daily basis. They would love to leave, but both are in their 70's, so nowhere wants them.

[Donovan83]

I originally left Joburg because I was sick of the crime, filth, lack of maintenance, nothing working, the racism, traffic, etc. We've all been there.

I didn't realise it at the time, but I am not only averse to Joburg for those reasons. I'm averse to the Joburg lifestyle - malls, bling, money, mansions, casinos. Big city problems. Working ALL the time, always needing to be and be seen to be "busy". I've never liked Joburg, ever since I was a little boy I used to yearn to live in Umhlanga (which was my original plan).

Then I moved to Perth (could have been Brisbane or any other coastal city in a warm climate though) and felt so much happier. At the time I thought it was mainly because the Africa factor was gone, but in reality it was probably equal parts that and living a surfie, laid back lifestyle which was what I wanted all along.

For reasons that were valid at the time, I moved to Melbourne and I accidentally ended up with a Joburg lifestyle again, minus the SA specific negatives. It's only when I made that second move that I realised that my reasons for leaving Joburg were not only limited to the obvious ones. Sometimes I wonder whether I should just move to Durban - cheaper cost of living, closer to family, etc - but then, the problems with SA are dealbreakers to me so I dismiss the option quite quickly.

The point I am trying to make is that wherever you go, make sure there's some kind of pull factor. It can't just be to escape the problems.

[monsta]

I think @JoeOzBound hasvit right.

There has been a lot of discussion here over the last year about rent vs buy. The same logic applies about leaving RSA.

Its always going to get harder each year to buy property in a big city in Aussie. As @Nev has pointed out in other posts, it's not financially terrible if you rent and invest what you save. But when you have enough saved up for a bond, don't second guess every property you look at

I guess, yes you are in a good wicket now in RSA. But don't be scared to move when you can. Oh and I am talking about thigbs like meeting the work experience Aussie requires

[SurferMan]

Well I was taking home six figures after tax in SA, and I am better off here in Aus, but up to now have not been able to buy. We made a concious choice, like Nev did. Once we have moved to Brisbane, we till buy our first of hopefully many. Here's to wishful thinking!

[monsta]

@SurferMan and when you do buy, renting and saving will look really good... compared to buying. But somehow you will still be happy that you bought

Not too dissimilar to migration..

[JuliaClaire]

I really relate to this post. The question of whether or not SA will improve dominates my thinking. We live in SA and our PR visa expires next year. The main thing stopping us from moving right away is employment. - we simply are not at the stage in life where we can afford to move to australia without secured employment.

If we don't find employment, do we let our visa lapse? Or do we take it up, give up what security we have here only to face financial stress in Australia and the feeling that you 'never quite got on your feet'

In my everyday life I also see good, happy people trying their best to get ahead. There are Fancy shopping centres and petrol stations springing up. A very smart black middle class is emerging. And it's great to see. But then i read about all the horrors of bee, crime, corruption, the increasing reverse racism etc etc and I feel fearful about the future.

I think If you have lots of money, can live like a wealthy ex pat, in your own country, be independent of government services, monied enough to send your children abroad to study, and ensure yourself a cushy retirement, ( with your back up British or whatever passport tucked in your pocket) Then it's okay to stay.

But if not ...

I don't know, it's all so confusing !!!

[JuliaClaire]

And Mara when you say " I feel for those in SA"

Sometimes I so agree; When I was in oz en route back to SA., I remember looking at the long line of Saffas waiting to check in, and I felt quite sorry for us all. Knowing all the nonsense we were returning to. How peaceful it had been in Aus.

Then, sometimes I get really annoyed by these types of statements. I want to bellow; Please don't feel sorry or worry about us here in SA. We are just fine and actually quite happy.

The problem is I swap between these two standpoints probably 10 times in one day.

Very divided. Quite sad really.

Edited May 23, 2015 by JuliaClaire

[Sunnyskies]

JuliaClare, we were in that position 7 years ago, feeling divided in our hearts and financially secure so concerned about giving that up. I was lucky in that I did secure employment while still in SA otherwise a) we couldn't leave as I could only get a 457 visa initially and I would have been too scared to leave with 2 small children And no income.

Why did we go when our life was good? I didn't want to have to encourage my children to leave when they turned 18. Australia has been good to us but it has also been very hard and I did doubt our decision for a number of years. Now I am greatful that I had the courage to take a leap of faith.

Friends of ours let their visa lapse and they did express great disappointment in themselves for doing that. They have been some of the greatest supporters of us going.

[Mara]

@ JuliaClare: Sorry if my statement sometimes makes you feel annoyed, I am not sure how else to put it.

My eldest sister, who is dependent on the younger sister, lives in lala land and if you listen to her, then living in RSA is like nirvana. On speaking to the younger sister, who still works, supports them both, owns property etc, about this one day, her comment was, if she had to face reality, she would probably have a nervous breakdown. When I questioned that, she told me that the older sister once asked, "what happens to me if you die?". That is the part that scares me about them living in RSA.

For the younger sister, I know for a fact that she would give whatever she had, to live in Australia.. I so wish there was a way I could bring them here, but alas, there isn't. She had a great opportunity, some fifteen years ago, but at the time, for a silly reason (my feeling and now hers) she decided not to take the opportunity. Now she is way too old. Upon her son's death, her daughter in law moved back to the UK, so all that is left for her, is to travel overseas to visit her only grandchild and to visit me. She has told me that there is not a day that goes by that she does not berate herself for not taking the opportunity!

So... my five cents worth, if you have a visa, and you do not make use of it, then I am almost certain that the time will come where you say to yourself "what did we do?", unfortunately it will then probably be too late to go anywhere and if you have children, they will probably be living elsewhere in the world... imagine just seeing them, if you are lucky, only once a year?

[Nev]

Get here, get your citizenship an then you have the opportunity to have another go of SA with a safety net available.

I will put a dollar on the table that afer staying here for the required years you wont be willing to live in SA once you have seen how life is supposed to be in Auz, yes there are people who cant settle, no it is not the land of fairy-tails, but it offers a future for your children and a great life and future for yourself, SA cannot say that

I have a suspicion that the people who go back to SA and stay are the ones that gave up their visa, the others quickly realize that they made a mistake and haul ass back.

[SurferMan]

I will double that dollar Nev. JuliaClaire, trust me, those who dont make it here and go back, for whatever reason, are in the minority. Most of us make it just fine here. Cmon over, the water is fine!

[Craig01]

.... there is plenty of work here in Australia (I am in Brisbane) IF you are prepared, really prepared to do anything. We are sometimes our own worst enemies in the thinking that 'I want the same job, status etc.. that I had in South Africa' .... "I have been looking for work for x months and still cannot find work" ..... nah, don't buy it I am afraid.

So what if you struggle to find work in your trained field? .... who cares? ..... go work at Bunnings (Builders Warehouse equivalent), pack shelves at Woolies, Coles, flip burgers at McDonalds etc etc.... Have a little look on Seek in any profession / trade / whatever ... there is HEAPS of work out there and I will never entertain the argument that says otherwise.

Queensland, as an example has committed to 615Million Dollars to train-up people in the various fields that are deemed to be experiencing a shortage of qualified people ... in many instances, they pay for ALL your training up to and sometimes beyond CertIII (Certificate 3) - see 'http://www.training.qld.gov.au/training-organisations/funded-programs/certificate3/index.html' - change professions if you want ..... they will pay and you will get a chance to get a leg-up in a different field. Become a carer, drive a forklift, get into Sales, work as a cleaner etc etc .....

If Husband and Wife both work, for example 30 or so hours per week at the minimum wage then you could rent a decent home in a decent area and live a basic but good life forever if you wanted ....

over and out

[Rhyss]

Good read.....

http://www.thesouthafrican.com/leaving-south-africa-for-all-the-right-reasons/

The decision to leave South Africa is one that builds over time. Subconsciously, at some point, leaving becomes the right thing for you to do.

The word “better” becomes part of your motivation. Part of what you tell those who ask why. A better life, a better job, a better opportunity. A better place to raise children. Sometimes the only cure for life’s hiccups is to turn your world upside down.

Behind difficult goodbyes, excitement tingles. A heartache for the familiar is neutralised by an itch for the unknown. An itching to go. To be.

Like restless animals, forever seeking the greenest grass to graze, as the grass browns and dries in one spot, so we are drawn to another. It makes sense for our survival. We yearn to try, to tread, to taste.

So we squeeze our lives into boxes and set sail.

Before long, the complicated streets in the foreign spot you find yourself in become familiar.

You grapple with being a temporary resident, an expat, an immigrant.

A little further along the way, the hiccups come back. They’re different this time, but there nonetheless.

You hold your breath.

Some find relief in staying. Some find relief in going home. No matter the decision, the pull of home is impossible to ignore.

You find yourself wondering…

Were your motivations for leaving South Africa strong enough to quench your desire to return?

Has your hope of a “better” life really bettered your life?

If you leave South Africa, leave South Africa with dignity, for the right reasons.

If you talk of South Africa, talk about her with respect.

South Africa may not be your current resting point, she may not be your first choice. But she is home.

Edited May 24, 2015 by Rhyss