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Canberra Employment Conundrum


KalahariHarry

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Good day all,

Our current position

As most of you know we have received our ACT PR190 recently, so time is about upon us to move.

As our PR was granted I proceeded to get in touch with my prospective employer who had offered me a job and thus helped us secure PR (No i never signed a contract so there is currently No obligation to work for them).

The Offer

When I got in touch and said "lets seal the deal" the contact came and was below what I was initially offered. Yes the offer had decreased.

The offer is for 2 yrs of employment, I don't know if this is std or even legal there, what are they going to do if I leave before 2 yrs? Call the employment police?

Hours 07:15-17:30 (10.25 hrs per day say -1hr lunch/tea times etc) 9.25 hrs x 5 = 46.25hr workweek - I don't mind hard work but it seems they are getting serious bang for their low buck :-)

Initially

They did offer me a 457 sponsorship and I declined, saying I am already in process of 190 PR application so therefor I'd rather save them the 457 application fee. I Am now SUPER STOKED I did not accept their help or I would be tied to them for cheap labour.

The Conundrum

1. I Did feel morally obligated to work for them UNTIL they dropped the offer to what I think is barely a survivable wage for us in Canberra 45K AUD + Commission (I don't want to sound vain but surely I am worth a bit more with a degree and my experience).

2. I Feel like a desperate 2cent hooker that is being taken for a serious ride - and I do not know what to make of the low offer and the two year locked in contract? I Feel like they are thinking, "oh well here is another desperate South African, so lets get what we can out of him"

3. Surely I can make that money bartending and not even using my brains, and enjoy myself while I look for another job.

4. What would you all advise if you were in this position.

5. I only wonder if I accepted their offer of a 457, Would I be locked into a job that the employer now offered me less money, and I would have no choice, If the employer is behaving in this fashion before the start of the employment contract, what will the future working relationship be like?

The Way Forward?

Mail them and ask why the decrease in the final offer?

On average what is the commission earned per month?

On average what is your current labour sales per consultant?

Hours 07:15 AM - 17:30 what are the breaks, IE. the amount of hours to work per day?

Why the 2 yrs locked in employment term?

Get released from my Sponsorship commitment?

Do I mail my settlement officer and show her these documents, and tell her this is what I have to contend with - then secure a job on the Gold Coast and go and enjoy the sunshine. I Am considering this option, lol.

-----

I Have a bit of money so we can survive a few months and look for something better. I realise you all will say take the job and then shop around, but I feel like I am being taken for a Bl**dy Fool. And I am nobody's fool, I would detest having to go to work, knowing I hate being there, because of being taken for a ride. Also what is the point of me working for a salary we cannot survive on?

Also bear in mind this was never a "career" move for me but a stepping stone to the next position, just to land with an income, If treated well and there were opportunities to progress, I would then have had no reason to be disloyal to them.

NOTE: The opinions expressed above are my current feelings and in no way meant to degrade the employer as they DID help me, by writing 1 letter on intent. By no means however did they invest incredible amounts of time in my prospective employment. I Need some sound, level-headed advice, please guys and gals.

I Await your soonest responses.

A Very confused Trev

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Honour your commitment or at least try. Also keep in mind the value of getting "Oz experience", could make a big difference to your success in the longer term.

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I suggest you get onto the Australian work cover site and do some research on the industry award that you job falls under. It will give a complete breakdown of what is considered as normal hours, overtime etc. A 38 hour work week is generally the standard and anything over that is normally paid at time and half or double time depending on the day of thw week.

Here is a good place to start your research, hope it helps. http://www.fairwork.gov.au/awards-and-agreements/awards/list-of-awards

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Thx heojj...

was waiting for your input. What about the 2 yr contract issue? I could still walk away whenever I like. So why make me sign for 2 yrs?

T

Thank you chzaau. I Am considering my options...feeling a bit "cheap" ...

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I am not sure how the ACT state sponsorship ship thing works but as far as I know you are obligated to stay in the state for two years not work for the same employer for two years.

The standard in the recruitment industry is to offer a contract with a three month probation period at the end of which a salary and performance review is done where both the employer and employee get to decide if they like each other and want to continue the relationship.

If I was you I would play open cards with the settlement officer. Don't email her any documents yet but definitely mail her explaining the situation and ask her advice. Rather be honest and follow the rules (even if that means you get locked into a 2 year contract) than risk loosing your visa. I doubt they will release you frkm youe sponsorship but they will give you advice. Also I don't thi k an employer can legally lock you into a 2 year contract without some sort of exit clause.

Again I am not entirely sure of the rules when it comes to a SS190 visa but as I understand your obligation is to stay in the sponsoring state for 2 years.

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Yes juju. I have to stay in act. But not at all tied to the prospective employer. So I have visa and am a free agent. Now just to decide if I need to bend over for these ppl or not...not very keen as the move shows lacking character on their part. Just trying to gain some perspective here...

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KalahariHarry, See below, the federal law about hours of work, YES 38 hours is the norm, send them a copy of this PDF and see what their reaction is!

Maximum-weekly-hours.pdf

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Difficult one................if you don't take the job and sit for 3 or more months without work, what will that do to your savings.....and it is that valuable "Australian work experience".

I'm not sure how they can tie you into a 2 year contract...............does it say anything about giving notice etc? Unless that is part of sponsorship for the 190.

You come with a degree and experience, but are "untested', so to speak, in Australia.............many people go back to square one when they arrive.

I have no idea if that is a normal salary for the occupation and if the commission makes it more attractive..............it isn't a great wage, but many people do earn that.

Having a job to walk into shouldn't be ignored, I suppose it is more about what you do with it,what if you consider it a temporary necessity while you look for something else.

Re the hours, 38 is a normal week, so I suspect you would also have another 2 breaks in there.............it all depends on the award you are under.

This is one you have to decide......at least you would be learning about the Australian workplace and your rent would be paid, but certainly clear up the hours of work and commission.

The offer is above the minimum wage.......if you were on 457, it would have to be about $52 000 off the top of my head, but you wouldn't have the perks of p.r., so it is better in that respect................sorry I can't help with a way forward. Good luck.


Re the hours work again..........you don't always get paid overtime, again it depends on your award...........in certain industries Time Off In Lieu is done instead of overtime.

Re the 2 year contact, perhaps that is what they had to offer in terms of the support letter for your 190, so that would most likely be why, but unless there is something specific written in your contract you can usually resign with a weeks notice in the first year or less.

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Trev...they are bound by legislation to pay penalty rates if you work over a certain amount of hours. I will see if I can get the award they operate under.

I know there are people who work in the 80 and 90k pa bracket but for new immigrants I think thats the exception not the norm (and mostly in IT)

I have found a job I love but cery low salary. Not mich more than what you mention to be honest. And yes its a bitter pill to swallow, feeling like cheap labour, having a lot of qualifications and working 3 times as hard ad the team leader who earns 100k. But i have a plan....at the afe of 40 I just have to do it all over again. When they go om and on about people with a masters degree I say nothing and when they give me menial jobs I do it. one day this will pay of, im sure

I havent seen your contract so I will only venture my opinion, might br wrong though depending on the contents. 2 years to me means if you pass probation you are sure of a job for 2 years but you can resign any time you want. All it means is they didnt offer you a permanent job but rather a 2 year contract. You can walk away whenever. I know how you feel and understand the frustration, and if you can support yourself without income for a while go for it. You have to do what is good for you. I only know that of my pension that I brought over there is very little left. Its really expensive if you dont bring in any $.

I guess why I felt you should take the job and 2 year contract is good security is beacuse I deal mainly with temp appointments and the horrible part of my job is ending someone's assignment...as they call it. And i havd had to do it more than I would care to remember. Its very easy to lose your job, they are not as labour oriented as RSA and most people never know the job security we had.

I truly hope you get the answers you are looking for. Only you will know whats right for your family. If there is anything we can help with...you have my nr?

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Re the hours work again..........you don't always get paid overtime, again it depends on your award...........in certain industries Time Off In Lieu is done instead of overtime.

They may not have to pay you money for overtime but they certainly do have to compensate you in some way.

I have found a job I love but very low salary. Not much more than what you mention to be honest. And yes its a bitter pill to swallow, feeling like cheap labour, having a lot of qualifications and working 3 times as hard ad the team leader who earns 100k. But I have a plan....at the age of 40 I just have to do it all over again. When they go on and on about people with a masters degree I say nothing and when they give me menial jobs I do it. one day this will pay of, I'm sure

Makes me angry that employers take advantage of immigrants and think it's okay to do so because we are desperate. :angry2:

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They may not have to pay you money for overtime but they certainly do have to compensate you in some way.

Makes me angry that employers take advantage of immigrants and think it's okay to do so because we are desperate. :angry2:

And it is quite acceptable to offer TOIL in some industries. The people who work at the agency I volunteer at (granted it is government funded) get TOIL, absolutely no overtime is paid. We have just switched awards, so I don't remember the name, but it is a community services award.

There are also piece rates, for factory workers, where you are paid per piece, and commission only rates, if not covered by an award.

The thing to do is find out what award you are are under, and that will explain more.

I also want to add, that although 38 hours is the normal working week, certain industries are able to work outside of this, construction and forestry industry,mining and abattoirs....hubby used to work a 45 hour week with no overtime pay.

Also in certain service industries, one can accrue an RDO by starting work earlier. In our case if staff start work 27 minutes earlier, they can accrue a day off per month...................everything depends on the award.

Here is a list of modern awards http://www.fairwork.gov.au/awards-and-agreements/awards/list-of-awards#s

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TOIL sounds like they are rewarding you with more work for working hard. Doesn't make sense why they would do that though because you accrue leave for time worked, long service leave after you have been at a company for 7 or more years and then they still give you TOIL which would essentially have to be treated as annual leave and be paid out in cash when your employment is terminated.

Could end up costing the company way more money in the long run than just paying out the over time in the first place.

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What is the job category trev?

Heoj- they started me in a junior role because Im new, dont have oz experience and I have not done agency work before. I believe i have proven myself over and over by catching up and then overtaking some of my colleagues? i WILL be promoted soon? Some employers take advantage but for the most part I think they just want to be sure that we know what wr say we know

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TOIL sounds like they are rewarding you with more work for working hard. Doesn't make sense why they would do that though because you accrue leave for time worked, long service leave after you have been at a company for 7 or more years and then they still give you TOIL which would essentially have to be treated as annual leave and be paid out in cash when your employment is terminated.

Could end up costing the company way more money in the long run than just paying out the over time in the first place.

TOIL means you are getting paid time off, and most companies have a policy re TOIL, that it has to be used within a certain time frame, i.e. within the month, and TOIL is not transferable to cash.............in government funded orgs, where you work with a set budget for wages and on costs, it is the only thing you can do, if an employee has to work outside of normal hours.............there simply is no medium for overtime, that is why TOIL normally has to be pre-approved....it is pretty common in the childcare industry, and more so in community services/NGO's, Not for profit orgs.

In community services annual leave is accrued, but is totally different to TOIL, TOIL is not transferable.

What is the job category trev?

Heoj- they started me in a junior role because Im new, dont have oz experience and I have not done agency work before. I believe i have proven myself over and over by catching up and then overtaking some of my colleagues i WILL be promoted soon Some employers take advantage but for the most part I think they just want to be sure that we know what wr say we know

I agree with, you, you are an unknown entity...................they take a chance with you, but if you prove yourself, you move up quickly.

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Hey Kalahari

Pretty rubbish one, i suggest you chat to an agent but here is my understanding:

As i understand it you are on a state sponsored visa, that means you need to work in the state not at a specific person, if you did they wouldn't need to lock you in for 2 years as you would be forced by the visa,

You could sit unemployed in the state and meet he requirement.

However if you leave the state and go work somewhere else you will loose your visa.

My suggestion:

Try to get a conversation going,

Firstly send them the specifics of the original email and salary, and ask why it has gone down, perhaps they have a justification or they might put it back up.

Secondly make a counter offer, tell them you have no idea if the commission will make the salary livable so you are only willing to sign a 6 month contract, that way you can leave after 6 months if it is not working out, and you will have local experience, i seriously doubt that they will not take you at all instead of a shorter term, if however they are not prepared to take a shorter term then you want some kind of salary guarantee, you could also sign the contract then with a clause of 3 months probation from both sides.

The contract is not set in stone, read it carefully and where needed tell them you want it changed

As was said above the law specifies the number of hours a week and that is well over, ask them why their weekly hours are so high compared to the legal amount, do they work weeks on then off?

Edited by Nev
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I think you should take it just not under those terms, as a minimum, don't get locked into 2 years, you can live with the rest

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Thx nev. Waiting to get hold of a recruiter in the auto industry to discuss it. See how it compares to industry standards. Even if I sign a 2yr contract. What will they do if I hand in my notice...sue me?

Trev

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I hear you, good idea on getting a comparison, there may be better opportunities out there and you can skip these guys alltogether

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What is the job category trev?

Heoj- they started me in a junior role because Im new, dont have oz experience and I have not done agency work before. I believe i have proven myself over and over by catching up and then overtaking some of my colleagues i WILL be promoted soon Some employers take advantage but for the most part I think they just want to be sure that we know what wr say we know

One thing I have discovered is that loyalty and hard work are rewarded in the long run.

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Agreed. But need to explore and be informed. I Do realise landing with a job would be awesome. Also don't want to sound ungrateful. Just feeling a bit cheap with the late "below the belt" move to lower the offer...

Either way we have the visa and there are people with bigger problems than us.

t

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Here is a breakdown of the hours of the award that I got from one of our clients in the recruitment industry.

Casual Loading: 25%

Normal Week: 38 hours per week on not more than five days in any week.

Standard Day: 7.6 hours per day.

Minimum Shift: 4 hours

Early Morning Shift: N/A

Day Shift: 6am to 6pm.

Afternoon Shift: Afternoon shift means a shift commencing not later than 6.00 pm on any day. After 12pm and before 6pm. 18% for working on afternoon shift only.

Night Shift: Night shift means a shift commencing at any time after 6.00pm on any day. 30% for working on night shift only; From 6pm till 4am.

Time & Half: After 7.6 hours.

Double Time: After 3 hours of time & a half

Saturday: First 3 hrs at time & a half, then Double time.

Sunday: An employee who works any of their ordinary hours on a Sunday will be paid at the rate of Double time for the hours so worked. Double all day.

Public Holiday: On a public holiday, at the rate of Double time and a half; Double time and a half.

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But if the contract states work hours ae 07:15-17:30 does that not mean I work the whole day? Or do they mean shifts between those hours? I'm lost. T

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just a question,

Could they perhaps consider you to be management as then it works completely differently?

The award stuff is for the on the ground workers

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Its 01:30 am, so will read through it all agan tomo. As well as all posts and speak to a recruiter. Will then compile questions on the offer to send to them....

thx to all of you!

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