Why South African whites are coming home

[Eyebrow]

340 000 and "genuine feeling of being alive?"

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-27252307

[RYLC]

No not true in principle. There is a discussion on this on Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/groups/302551099834847)

The article quotes one Australian family lonely on an isolated farm (hardly the norm) and all others were from the UK. All now had foreign passports as a back door option and all had young families where the need for in-home help is greatest. Get your salt cellar out.

Edited to add:

"Homecoming Revolution estimates that some 340,000 have come home in the last decade."

My reading of other articles in the past would suggest that they were most likely to be long term exiles who had been out of the country for a looonnnng time.

Edited May 3, 2014 by Crisplet

[21yearsoutofrsa]

Just looking at the stats within the article itself.

"Homecoming Revolution estimates that some 340,000 have come home in the last decade." That equates to 34 000 per year.

"The Irvings were among 44,500 white South Africans who left the country in 2004"

So even on those stats the net loss is 10 000 per year.

"Around one in six returnees end up leaving again". So of the 340 000 that returned 57 000 of them emigrated for a second time.

Other stats I do know of have South African born immigrants in Australia and New Zealand increasing between the latest and and the last census. Based on those figures and extrapolate for the fact that Australia/Nz accounts for 20% of the total RSA emigration and you have an estimated total NET emigration from RSA in the last 5 years of 320k people. 320k in a white population (and I know it is not only white people who emigrate, and I don't want to get into that argument again, but the guts of emigration from South Africa is white, and it is the only group in RSA were the issue has an affect on the demographics, to an extent that it can be measured) of 4 million is 8% in the last 5 years alone, and those 5 years had a GFC in them.

Also if you accept the figure that 1 million RSA's have left RSA in the last 20 years (a number that I have backed up using a number of different sources) then 340 000 people returning would suggest that every third migration results in a return to South Africa.

Looking at this forum, and other forums around the world about South Africans leaving I just don't believe it. There is no way every third person on this forum returns to South Africa. I acknowledge that returnees may not publicize their return, but not that many would hide the fact. In fact there would be many more forums around the world for people immigrating to RSA. I admit I don't look for them, but suspect I would have stumbled across them while researching forums for going the other way.

[AndreaL]

I'm not going to argue the fact that some return, because this is obviously so, but do question the figures. In my own experience having lived in 3 different towns in Australia, I probably know about 100 South African families by now, and can only think of about 3 who have returned.

I do believe that a fair amount do return from the UK, but it has always been the case that young professionals have always seen several years of work in the UK on their resume as a positive thing, i.e. many were there for career prospects and not to live for good.

In the case of Australia and NZ, it is more likely to be young families who have a different motive for moving, that of their childrens future.

[RYLC]

I also want to add that not all migrants are counted in the stats. My husband and I just went on an extended holiday many years ago. We never formally migrated so we are not counted

[Donovan83]

Get your barf bags out, people.

Ms Jones describes it as a "genuine feeling of being alive" that South Africans do not experience in new lives overseas, whether it is Britain, Australia or New Zealand.

I feel far more alive in "dullsville" Perth than I ever felt in Johannesburg.

Add to that, I feel more included and like I belong here in Aus than I ever felt in SA, where I was constantly made to feel like some kind of troll for having a white skin.

[elleneo]

I think what we feel when we hear people go back is similar to how those who we left behind felt when we left them in South Africa. That being said there are way too many variables to accept those stats. Accept what you know, being, what percentage of people do u personally know have returned. Then ask yourself how maby of those desperately want yo leave sa again?

I only know of 2 families who left, one was for a temporary work assignment (3 years) the other missed family support as she was expecting twins. The twins are now 2 years old and they are crying every day on Facebook about how stupid they were to have left nz as now they can't get back.

So from personal experience, it's nothing more than homecoming revolution propaganda.

[HansaPlease]

I also want to add that not all migrants are counted in the stats. My husband and I just went on an extended holiday many years ago. We never formally migrated so we are not counted

Spot on. Me too.

[Garrick]

Btw, we've not officially emigrated...and I'm sure we're not the only 'uncounted'.

-G

[Johnno]

I wonder just how accurate these figures are?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-27252307

[Jordy]

merged with existent thread

[Donovan83]

So if you don't formally emigrate, they just consider you to have taken a really long holiday?

I think it would be better to get tax residence status of expats from SARS... but that would probably not be possible to get.

[Johnno]

So if you don't formally emigrate, they just consider you to have taken a really long holiday?

I think it would be better to get tax residence status of expats from SARS... but that would probably not be possible to get.

If there is one really jacked up department in SA government, it's SARS......ask me I know

Many Saffas simply buy a one-way ticket with no intention of ever returning. That's all great but one should formally immigrate by completing what is referred to as a formal immigration process. This has nothing to do with citizenship, passports etc. Apparently if you have been out of SA or intend being out of SA for 5 or more years you need to formalise your immigration as a non-resident. One thing this means s that if you inherit in SA, you can repatriate funds overseas legally. If you have not, you could experience probs. It's worthwhile getting proper advice from the pro's.

edit....and this is why I believe the official numbers (according to SA Gov) of people who have left SA in the last 15 years would be so grossly under reported and hence inaccurate. Maybe if they had an idea of the real numbers someone in Gov would sit up and take note......nah, they'll more than likely high-five each other and crack open another bottle of Johnny Walker.

Edited May 4, 2014 by Johnno

[RYLC]

So if you don't formally emigrate, they just consider you to have taken a really long holiday?

I think it would be better to get tax residence status of expats from SARS... but that would probably not be possible to get.

We did tax returns for SARS for two years (as required) and then declared ourselves as non residents which we were - no different to working long term in Dubai.

Edited to add that inheritance was no problem. My mum died three years after our move and my share of her estate was transferred to me by the executor. Obviously things change but at the time there was no problem.

Edited May 4, 2014 by Crisplet

[Bronwyn&Co]

I also want to add that not all migrants are counted in the stats. My husband and I just went on an extended holiday many years ago. We never formally migrated so we are not counted

Ditto for 5 of us and another 4 in our street alone, and another 3 people I know in the next suburb. In my personal experience that's the norm.

Edited May 4, 2014 by Bronwyn&Co

[RYLC]

Yes Bronwyn it definitely was the norm.

My in laws officially migrated because they have a pension fund over there and needed tax clearance to access the money.

Edited May 4, 2014 by Crisplet

[Bronwyn&Co]

It would be very interesting to know the real numbers. I'm thinking/guessing maybe 20% have bothered with formal emmigration, but more will complete the process to get their RA's out now?

[Mikej]

There is no future for non Africans in Africa. We can argue the figures but the number of Whites living in ZA will continue to decline.

I think it was Robert Guest who wrote that outside of South Africa there are only about 350,000 white people living as permanent residents in Africa. This is a surprisingly low population for such a huge continent and is a huge drop from what it was.

It is nothing more than an interesting aside to debate the current ebb and flow of the white population in ZA. In a few decades the older generation will have passed and with them a significant proportion of the white population.

[Bob]

It is just an interesting aside.

If white people want to migrate back to South Africa, good on 'em.

The demographic reality is that white people around the world are not replacing themselves and the African population is doubling every second generation.

So . . . . in thirty or forty years time, where will that leave any white people situated in any African country?

Professional people will always be in need, no matter where they are (America, Britain, Australia, South Africa), but whether they feel integrated enough to make a difference where they happen to live is what makes them feel whether they belong, or not.

If you don't think that your vote, or the votes of people like you, make a scrap of difference to the way the country is heading, then it's a big ask to feel like you matter.

[gordonza]

the Irvings had had "enough of living in a sorted society".

HA HA HA HA, so in other words, they're a bunch of law breakers that were tired of obeying the laws of a civilized country and decided to go back to a place where anything goes....

[McCabes]

where do I start????

there is so much absolute CRUD in that article, I literally don't know where to start. Well done, HR, on flipping the numbers in a way that suits your purpose.

I did laugh out loud at the "sense of belonging" comment.

Have to also say a few of those interviews had that ring of denial - wonder if the lady who felt sheltered from the reality of the news here is going to still feel comfortable after weeks, months, a year of the same? And it just doesn't get better.

Sorry. I think HR are lying to people, and folks might be deciding to come back based on this blather, when the reasons they left haven't gone away, and are instead compounding.

*sigh*

[Piper100]

Keep in mind that HR has a function they have to fullfil, even if it is to bend the truth a bit (a lot actually!!!). In my opinion they count returning South Africans that have been on contract work overseas e.g. UAE, Singapore etc. They use propoganda as it suits them, and there are actually a lot of South Africans that believe this so called "good news" of returning Saffers. I have heard al lot of people quoting this article and having the opinion that they would not move as so many return - I think more to put themselves at ease that "things are not so bad", and might get better.

I have a lot of interaction with many people in the financial services industry, and I have not met one who have left and returned again (although I am sure it does happen, it is rather the exception than the rule).

[SurferMan]

Piper100,

I also know a few very high calibre finance guys (CFO) and they are all leaving in the next 12-36 months, and already have PR in the bag. It is interesting we have the same experience. HR can sing all they want about this, cold fact is more leave than go back. But for those who go back, all the best. Im staying.

[Orphan]

Piper100/SurferMan

I see that this topic has been revived...and for good reason, as it continues to have top of mind awareness among many of my business colleagues and friends as well.

Whenever my decision to emigrate to Australia surfaces in a conversation with other businessmen, even those whom I only know in passing, I am always surprised at the intensity of their questions about emigration...which are almost always in a positive and personal exploratory sense.

For many in my circle of 50 years-and-over businessmen, the pressure of holding onto their jobs in the face of BEE and Affirmative Action policies is starting to tell. Added to this, is a growing disenchantment with the rising level of corruption present in the majority of interactions with government and, to a lesser degree, private companies. It seems that the backhanded salute has now become the standard form of greeting.

For those of my friends who have reached retirement age, the prospect of surviving to a ripe old age in an environment riddled with crime, appears daunting. Further, there is a great deal of anxiety over the potential fallout when the lid blows off the pot containing 18 million unemployed people. And of course the cost of decent healthcare, and the quality of services, particularly electricity, water and roads, remains a burning issue.

As a result, the prospect of living out one's last days in a country where the rule of law is respected, things actually work, and one can walk the streets in safety, is a very enticing one for most, if not all of them. In my experience, the vast majority would leave if they could; but just as in Zimbabwe, there are many who can read the writing on the wall, but are unable to do anything about it.

And then of course there are those frogs in pots who cannot, or will not, recognise that the water temperature in this country is rapidly rising!

[21yearsoutofrsa]

I think one has to mindful that there are many people who see the writing on the wall but can't do anything about it.

Many will possibly avoid conversations about emigration because they know they can't but wish they could. There can me many reasons for why they can't, and it may not be because they don't have the points, it could be family, finances, fear of jobs, children not prepared to go, I could think of many more. And while you may think their attitude is a lack of enthusiasm for your circumstances, it may be a self coping mechanism. Many may sing the praises of RSA.

I am not suggesting that life should be a one way street but the man holding the 2, 4, 6, 8 and 10 of clubs (is that the worst poker hand you can have?) doesn't want to be reminded that you have a top strait in spades.

As I approach my fifties I notice that my RSA friends are starting to think about retirement but that my overseas friends clearly still have to work. But at the age of fifty you still have 35 to 40 years left. While nothing is guaranteed I know where I would like to be for those 35 to 40 years, even if I have to work for 15 of them. There are so many risks in South Africa. One of the biggest to my mind is a government raid (via taxes) of pension, provident and RAF funds.